Liz Flyntz

Jasmine: Okay, this is Jasmine Timmester interviewing Liz Flyntz, and it is November 3rd, 2021. So, to get us started, I want to ask if you could tell me a little bit about your life before Antioch and maybe, you know, so maybe about like your home life, and about possibly how you heard of Antioch, and maybe how you decided to go to Antioch?

Liz: Yeah, so I grew up in Annapolis, Maryland, which is a small 00:00:30city, let's say, or a big town. It's the state capital of Maryland, but it's also where the US Naval Academy's located and my dad was a Naval officer, and he also taught at the Naval Academy. And my mom was a school teacher at our local Catholic school and she taught fourth grade for like 37 years or 00:01:00something like that. And so my brother and I went to the Catholic School from kindergarten until we graduated from high school. So, you know, 13 years straight through [brief audio distortion]. Which was like--I think that Catholic school maybe has gotten like less horrible, but it was pretty bad, and especially for a queer kid. And in particular for--I sort of was just like 00:01:30relentlessly curious and spent a lot of time in the public library, and also read about feminism and stuff, which just got me in trouble, and I had like, lots of ideas, like being an atheist and being pro-choice, that were not popular in Catholic School, shall we say. So, and also, my parents were just 00:02:00like, pretty conservative in general. So, I was very excited--and I was very, like, weird and into punk and like, into riot grrrl and stuff, and was not not very popular in my high school. So, I heard about Antioch, maybe when I was like, maybe a sophomore, or maybe a junior, and actually, it was a thing 00:02:30that like several people that I knew talked about. I had some other friends who were, who went to the public school, who were weird and, you know, basically anyone you can find that was like, kind of weird or kind of queer, you were like, definitely going to be friends with them. And they, several people that I 00:03:00knew were--talked about like, Oberlin, and Hampshire, and Antioch, you know, basically as these places where there was some kind of like, acceptance [laughs] and that were like, interesting kind of radical schools that you could check out. And, I knew about Evergreen also because of riot grrrl, 00:03:30because that was sort of like, where riot grrrl was invented, I guess. So, I was friends with someone who ended up being a student, Mike Bare, who was, I think entered the year after me. And he was friends with this girl named Rachel Borgatti, who I'm still friends with, and she went to Antioch, she started like the year before me, so she maybe entered in 1996, and I heard that she was at Antioch and I invited her over so that we could talk about it, 00:04:00because I was so excited about it. And I still remember the swag, the like, material that Antioch sent to the house, and it was this like, finger, like an Uncle Sam like, hand-pointing at you, and this graphic design that said like, "Do you want to change the world?" And I was like, "Yes! This is amazing." The marketing really worked at me, a hundred percent.

Jasmine: Awesome. Sounds like really good advertising material.

Liz: Yeah.

Jasmine: Yeah, so, do you think growing up with, you know, Catholic School, a Navy dad, you know, do you think that that kind of like, pushed you maybe to you know, really value like such a more seemingly accepting place like Antioch? And you know, maybe if you had a more comfortable home, do you think you 00:05:00maybe would have, you know, not been as interested in Antioch, or?

Liz: I'm not sure, it's hard to say how much of my interest in Antioch was a reaction against how much I perceived my, you know, school and home life as being really repressive, and how much it was just, it just seemed like, a good like, an innately good fit. So I can't, it's hard to say, but it 00:05:30definitely was incredibly appealing. I didn't apply to any other colleges, I only applied to Antioch, basically because I knew that my parents didn't really want me to go to Antioch, and if I got in somewhere else, they would probably try to make me go there. So, I only applied to Antioch [laughs] and so, and then, you know, obviously I got in and then I was just like, welp, 00:06:00guess this is what's happening now.

Jasmine: Awesome. Alright, I'll go ahead and get into the first main question here. It's a two-parter, so I'll just ask the first part to start with. "Antioch College has a reputation for having one of the most radically progressive campus cultures in the country. Would you agree with that reputation?"

Liz: Oh, definitely.

Jasmine: When, you know, speaking about this radically progressive culture, what kinds of things do you associate with that? Like, what do you think of?

Liz: Well, I think that it's hard to say because I think that the reputation has shifted quite a bit in the last, you know, it's been 20 years. So, I think that the reputation has shifted quite a bit in the last 20 years, and it probably had shifted dramatically in the 20 years before that. I think that when I 00:07:00entered Antioch, it was still very much known as a radical place, because of its very active involvement in the anti-war movement in the 1970s. And when I spoke to people, even kind of like, "normies", let's say, like friends of my parents, and mentioned Antioch, it was still well known amongst the like, just random people, who you wouldn't think of as people who knew a lot about 00:07:30small liberal arts colleges in the Midwest, you know, even members of the military and stuff. Often they had like a negative view of it, but they knew what the college was, and they knew that it was extremely liberal, and that it had a reputation as being a center of radical leftist, political thought and anti-war activism in the Vietnam War era. When I applied to Antioch and entered Antioch, there was--that was immediately following the era when the 00:08:00SOPP [Sexual Offence Prevention Policy] was initiated and when Saturday Night Live had run a couple of skits that were about the SOPP. So, I think that those ran in like 1996. So, that was just after that, that period, and so that was the 00:08:30thing that people were talking about when they talked about Antioch in the like, 1997-98, when I was, you know, a new student and applying and so on. So, I think that the reputation changed over time, I think now, maybe, the reputation is really colored by this, by the closure and then reopening of the school, but it still definitely has that radical reputation. Oddly, I 00:09:00didn't realize this until I came to Antioch to do the--for Bob [Devine]'s Memorial and also to do the research for the Ant Farm Art Building Project, but there's also a lot of discussion of this like, situation with the lambs on the farm [laughs] and--which I didn't realize, and somebody had to tell me the whole story when I came to campus. So...

Jasmine: Yeah, it's a whole fiasco.

Liz: Yeah, I kind of gathered that [laughs].

Jasmine: [Laughs] With, you know, talking about this progressive reputation, do you feel like that's really--when you were attending, do you feel like the campus lived up to that reputation? And, you know, in any kind of way in that, 00:10:00you know, we could talk about the culture among the students, among the staff, among the faculty, you could talk about the structure, you know, shared governance... Anything like that, you know, either like met or exceeded, or didn't meet your expectations?

Liz: Oh, yeah, certainly. I mean, I think that--I mean, it's also, this is kind of hard for me to say exactly, because at that time, I had no point of comparison. Like, I have no other undergrad experience to directly compare it 00:10:30 to. But, you know, like I was suggesting, obviously I've spoken to other people who have other residential, liberal arts, undergrad experiences, and, you know, like my wife, for instance, so I do think--I mean, you know, what blew my mind when I was 17 and arrived on campus straight from Catholic High School, is, you know, is probably a fairly low bar [chuckles], but 00:11:00like, looking back now with some, like an expanded worldview, I guess, I will say that, yeah, I mean, I certainly think that the structure of how the--specifically with community governance, which made a huge impression on me, I think that that was huge, it was like, earth-shattering to 00:11:30be able to have that much direction over your life after being in an extremely restrictive environment, like, socially and in every other way. And I think that, I mean I can probably come up with some examples. I think that in retrospect, I think there's a little--I think there's some aspect of community government that is theater. And I think that community government is 00:12:00really important, and I think that what Antioch has, or what it had sort of in that heyday of the early 2000s, late '90s, when Bob Devine was President, which was probably kind of like, the peak of community governance in some ways, I think that that was extremely important, and community government did have a lot of power in certain ways, and certainly, like, the ideals were very 00:12:30good, but I also think that there was some aspect of it that was always theater, and that we didn't realize that it was theater until we were, until I was part of it as a CM [Community Manager]. There was part of it that was like, oh, yeah, like everything is power-sharing. But that wasn't actually true. On some level, the upper administration, upper levels of administration could make 00:13:00decisions by caveat that students couldn't engage with. I don't know if that answers your question.

Jasmine: That's all great to know. Because I know for some people, you know, talking about the progressive culture of the campus, it doesn't even really touch on shared governance. You know, that's almost a separate thing. But 00:13:30then for other people, that's like one of the first things they think of as, you know, being progressive and being, you know, a core part of Antioch's culture.

Liz: I think there's a few key things about that. I mean, I think it's that community governance is supposed to be power-sharing between faculty, administration, the union staff, and students. It's not supposed to be student government, but I think that sometimes it does have an aspect of 00:14:00that. I think there's another--and then there's kind of like, distributed pieces of how that works. You know, one thing that I think is really important is that, as community managers, we were given quite a large budget with which we could schedule campus events. It was like several hundred thousand dollars. So, that was really huge, like, we were the ones who decided what bands came to campus, what parties we had, what equipment we bought for, you know, 00:14:30performances and so on. And we had some like, grant money that we could give out to people to like, do projects and stuff. Also, the Record is one of the few student newspapers in the country that doesn't have an administrative oversight. So, there is no, there's a Record Advisory Board, but there's no, it's independent, like, there's no faculty member that is taking responsibility for what the students publish. And that's quite unusual. So, I 00:15:00think there's a number of ways in which like, community government plays out Antioch that are really important that are sort of like, under discussed, maybe.

Jasmine: Yeah, I think that's a great point, for sure. I think we can go on to the next part of the first question which is what was it like arriving as a new student on campus?

Liz: Well, I--so, first-year students lived in North [Hall], that was the 00:15:30first-year student dorm. And we all had roommates actually, which is, I realize, is probably quite unusual for you now, because there's so much space on campus. There were smoking halls and non-smoking halls, and you could 00:16:00smoke--one whole side of the building was smoking, and the other side of the building was non-smoking. And there were also sex-segregated floors, so the first floor was Randall and Green and they were both halls for women, and [audio distortion] one side was smoking--Randall was the smoking side and Green was the non-smoking side, and then like, one floor up was all men's, and then women and then men. So, that's, I think that was--that's probably a 00:16:30difference. Certainly there isn't smoking in the dorms anymore, I assume. And I chose to live in a smoking dorm, even though I didn't smoke, because I thought it would be more fun to hang out with the smokers, which--and I was correct. And yeah, it was great. We, like, you know, met our--my dad and I drove from Maryland in our van and then I unloaded all my stuff from the van, 00:17:00and then I basically was like, "Please leave, immediately" [laughs]. And then we had a great time. Like, we just like, really enjoyed walking around campus, and then also checking out Yellow Springs, which seemed like a very 00:17:30strange and alien place.

Jasmine: Awesome. So was it like, you know, quite a good fit like immediately then? Coming in as, you know, a unique individual?

Liz: Yeah, I thought it was great! I mean, I immediately was like, this is so wonderful, I love all of these people, I can't wait to, you know, 00:18:00this is like, exactly what I expected and wanted and I was really happy.

Jasmine: That's awesome. I think we can go on to the next question, which is, "How do you think this culture, Antioch's culture, affected you during your time attending the college, and your life beyond?" It's kind of a two-parter there already. And then there's more to that question as well. But I 00:18:30think, if you want to talk about that part.

Liz: Can you say the question again?

Jasmine: "How do you think this culture affected you during your time attending the college, and your life beyond?"

Liz: I think that the culture, it was really kind of a relief to not feel like I was the only freaky person in the whole world, because I really felt 00:19:00like I was... I felt quite lonely, like I was the only queer person, you know, queer girl that I knew, kind of, that was out. Like, I mean, I sort of, like, or at least that I was like, close friends with in high school. I didn't really have any friends that were queer. Like, you know--except for Mike 00:19:30Bare, who also went to Antioch [laughs]. And, yeah, it affected me just because I think I was like, really happy and felt like, really at home, in some ways, and then in other ways, I felt like, a little, I guess I had gotten a lot of my identity from being, like, an outsider, and then when I wasn't the 00:20:00like, weirdest person in the room, I kind of didn't quite know what to do with myself. But I guess, you know, I think that happens to a lot of people in some way, like, whatever made them special when they were in high school isn't what--isn't such a standout thing when they go to college, which is sort of like, they obviously selected this place based on their interests and then they're less of an outlier. But since then, I mean, I got really 00:20:30interested in--I studied art, and I had always been interested in art and like, but I also was a Record editor, and was really involved with doing, like, indie media and stuff like that. And I thought that I would, I thought that being a 00:21:00journalist would be a good way to like, combine wanting to make things with like, trying to be an activist, or trying to make a living, you know, because I had some idea that like, I had to get a job. And I learned that, like, upon graduating, my first job after I graduated was working for the Washington Blade which is the oldest [audio distortion] gay newspaper in the US 00:21:30and DC, and it paid horribly, and my bosses were kind of awful. And it was also very clear that the weekly newspaper model was being murdered by the internet, and [laughing] that there was absolutely no way that you could make a living as sort of like an alt-weekly journalist. That this was like, not going to be a sustainable model. So, I think, you know, Antioch has always been very focused--well, I don't know about always, but you know, within like, modern memory, has been really focused both on sort of like, left political and 00:22:00social values, but also on ideas about media, and media theory and like, how we communicate with each other. And so, you know, it really seemed like--and also the idea of like a synthesis of life and work, like you should try to make your 00:22:30life's work be something that is, you know, ethical, and something that can help you win some victory for humanity, and something that also incorporates like, your personal individual skills and allows you to contribute. And I think that that has sort of been, that's been a struggle because, you know, the things that are the most helpful to humanity as David 00:23:00Graeber the anthropologist articulates, the things that are, sort of like, the most--the work that is the most interesting and that gives the most back to your community is often the least valued. So, interesting work often is not well remunerated, and the most boring, bullshitty work often pays the 00:23:30best. So, it's been kind of like a moral struggle in my life to try to figure out how to make a living with, while also maintaining--like while using, you know, my skills, and like while maintaining some sort of like, ethical boundaries. Was that too long of an answer? I'm sorry.

Jasmine: [Definitely] not, you know, these, I mean the interview can 00:24:00go absolutely as long as you feel, you know, you have more to share. So yeah, no worries about that. Yeah, that's really interesting, and definitely some themes there that I've heard from others as well, about arriving on campus and, you know, you've been the misfit for so long and now it's like, everybody here is a misfit, so who am I really?

Liz: Mmhmm.

Jasmine: And also the themes of you know, trying to incorporate your 00:24:30own code of ethics into your career. And what does that look like? Yeah, so, I guess to go back to that first point, you know, coming to Antioch, feeling like, you know, who am I really? If, you know, if I was just this loner outcast before and now everybody here is, you know, kind of a weirdo in their own way, then you 00:25:00know, do you think that that led you in any kind of specific direction? Like really helped you find like, who you, you know--find an identity that you could really attach yourself to?

Liz: Yeah, I mean, I think that it was really... Yeah, I mean it led me to be able to focus on what were my actual skills and interests, rather than kind 00:25:30 of constantly trying to think about, you know, like how am I going to make it to my lunch period without like, being harassed? Um [chuckles], I mean, so I think--yeah, I mean, I think it definitely was like, just being able to feel comfortable around people was really helpful. I think, I don't know how much things have shifted for kids in high school now, I assume that 00:26:00it's better to some degree, but I don't know, like, it's hard to say how much, you know? But yeah, I mean, I think that like, being able to feel comfortable, or at least not feeling like you're the weirdest person on Earth, allows you to be able to focus on what your actual interests are.

Jasmine: That makes sense. I think, let's see. I think we'll go to 00:26:30the second part of the question, which is, "Did this culture, did Antioch's culture, affect your understanding of your own gender and sexuality?"

Liz: Yeah, I think I mean, I think there was like so much openness about, and 00:27:00sort of, I mean a combination of openness and like struggle around identity. And I think there was still a lot of conversation, I think there was still a lot of conversation especially within like, the lesbian community about like, butch and femme roles and like, how to fit that into some like concept of 00:27:30like, gender and feminism. I think there was still, that was still sort of like a hot conversation and I think that's kind of like, not, anymore. I think there was sort of a phenomenon that you may have heard about that was a rugby team was formed in 1999 I think was the first year that there was a rugby team, and it was only women's rugby, and it was like a, it was an 00:28:00intercollegiate club team. And the team was coached by a faculty member, Melinda Connor, who was in the anthropology, she was an anthropology professor and had a very popular anthropology class. But this team was like, it was really incredible, actually, that she put this team together and like, got us money to 00:28:30have uniforms, and like a van to drive us to these games with other clubs in the region. So we were playing all these, some college club teams, but also, like, you know, non-collegiate club teams, so like, women who were like, in their 30s, you know, who were just rugby aficionados and were like, very good and also like, way stronger than us. And so we would, we just basically got 00:29:00clobbered every time. But that was like an interesting aspect of thinking through what being queer meant to other people, because there were, you know, obviously like women's rugby is like, it's basically just, it's--the vast ma--[laughing] it's very gay. It's extremely lesbian. And, so we were playing these teams who were like from very like, random rural places, and it 00:29:30was it was quite interesting to kind of like, get a glimpse into like, what being a lesbian on this team at like, Wilberforce [University] was like, for instance. So, yeah, I don't know, I mean, I think the rugby was very formative. We had a big drag show once a year, and like there was a Queer Center, and those things were like, quite formative, I think. Yeah, I think 00:30:00those were like key parts of kind of like, thinking through what queer identity meant, and like, how you could kind of like ally yourselves along those lines of like, thinking through a gender and sexuality. I don't know if that 00:30:30was very coherent. I don't think I have a straightforward answer, actually.

Jasmine: That's fair! I mean, it's not a very straightforward thing, I would say. So.

Liz: Yeah.

Jasmine: I think that makes sense in its own way [chuckles]. Let's see. Oh, and in thinking about, you know, how your experience has affected you, 00:31:00how, you know, being at Antioch affected you, is there anything you'd like to share about maybe your co-op experience as well--experiences, I mean, and how that affected you, you know, and if that also affected your gender and sexuality.

Liz: Let's see. Well, I think that, I mean, co-op had like, was so 00:31:30interesting because, depending on what your co-op was, you could kind of go--like my first co-op was working for a law firm that was doing that was supporting some bills that were being introduced around restricting abortion. And so I was really interested in this and like supporting Pro-choice 00:32:00legislation basically, so I went to go work for this law firm and I thought that would be really great. And I was kind of like thinking that maybe being a lawyer would be a good career path because it's a way that you could help people and kind of shape policy potentially, and also, my dad was a lawyer. So I was like, okay. I like know what this is. And so, I went to go work for this 00:32:30law firm and I went from, you know, being at Antioch and having like, a shaved head and, you know, buying a hundred percent of my clothes at the thrift store, and just working in the art building all the time, and just being kind of like pretty filthy [laughs], generally speaking, to having to show up at an office where we literally had to wear pantyhose, at that time women couldn't 00:33:00go Into the court, even pages, like, I was basically working as a page, like, you know, bringing the legislation documents to the lawyers when they were sitting in session, during legislative session. So I would have to like, you know, run from the law office over to the state building. But once you were in the court, women had to wear skirts and pantyhose, it was required. 00:33:30So I had to get--and I had been on the mock trial team in high school, so I actually had a suit, like a skirt suit, but then I had to go, I had to like, shave my legs and wear pantyhose again and I was like, I don't know if I can--that's when I decided I couldn't be a lawyer, I was like, I can't do this. It just set seemed like, horrible and wrong and I was like, why did I run away from Catholic school if I'm just going to come back and then have to wear pantyhose. Like, absolutely not. That's a deal-breaker. So I think that 00:34:00co-op was helpful in that way, in that like, you kind of got an understanding that the world of work was a world in which you might be forced to do things in order to get along that you didn't want to, or that you kind of found distasteful. You found things that you were made to do in the world of work to be on a continuum between like, fine, neutral, like, distasteful, to 00:34:30like, morally repugnant, and you had to decide where you were going to draw the line of what you were willing to do, and what you weren't. And for me, it was like, I'm just, I can't handle--I mean, it's not like I quit, like I made it through the co-op and they gave me a good post-co-op letter, I guess, but you had to kind of like make this determination like, you know, where are 00:35:00you going to draw the line, and for me, I guess it was pantyhose. And, so then I didn't [laughing] do a co-op like that again.

Jasmine: Gotcha. And did you have, you know, any other co-op experiences that you'd like to talk about as well?

Liz: I mean, like, co-op was pretty open, and you could kind of do--I 00:35:30did a couple of on-campus co-ops, including doing the Record, and I think that being CM was my last co-op, but I did a co-op in Montreal, and that was great. 00:36:00Like, it was really amazing to be in this other city that had like a thriving queer scene, and be able to like, you know, feel like I was part--that I could like, be part of this community, even temporarily, but I don't know if that--it made me like, kind of confirmed that there was like, a 00:36:30community that was there for me outside of Antioch, so I had sort of, you know, obviously I had like, [audio distortion] been like other places besides where I grew up and Yellow Springs, but not really for any length of time. And in my, that first co-op where I was working for the law firm, I was not having like a great experience of like finding other queer people or finding a community. So, when I did this other co-op and I really was like in a big city and, you know, meeting new people, that was really exciting because I felt like there was a community that was out there, that was sort of networked 00:37:00everywhere and that I could find outside of Antioch, and that it wasn't like Antioch was the only place in the world where I wouldn't be... where I could be accepted, basically.

Jasmine: That makes sense. Let's see. I think we can go on to the next question. [Discussion around time constraints.] "Since graduation, have you built a family and/or career? And if so, do you relate these aspects of your 00:37:30life to your time at Antioch in any ways?"

Liz: Like, as I mentioned, this has been kind of like an emotional and moral struggle for me. So, I am really happily married. I've been married for a little over a year, and my wife and I have been together for four years. But, and so, I'm just like, could not really have imagined being so happy 00:38:00and I'm like real--you know, I'm just super grateful for that. So, I mean, I think that certainly like, knowing that that like, is possible, I think is important, because, I don't know, I don't think I like, understood that it was possible as a student. But I'm like here to say, it can happen for you, kids. So, and I think that like, in terms of career, like, that has 00:38:30been a big struggle too. So, I thought that, first I thought like, "Oh, I'll just be a journalist, because that's a good synthesis of, you know, being a writer and a maker, and like, a thinker. And also doing something that is like, positive, that can have impacts on communities, and that has the potential to be sort of transformative, to build narratives and kind of promote important 00:39:00stories." And my heroes were sort of like, these journalists who had written these, kind of groundbreaking stories and people who were working in indie media and stuff. And then it became clear that like, that was--especially the model of like, alternative journalism or independent media like the--every city had like an independent weekly that had a staff of like, [audio distortion] 00:39:3020, 30, 50 people and like, that was just disappearing. And then I thought like, "Oh, I'll work in arts administration, because that's also a synthesis of, you know, art and also like, helping other artists and you know, figuring out how to make things happen." And then I realized that that like, an extremely--working in arts admin I realized that that was like, kind of the realm of... it was mostly run by a like, rich people who didn't really need jobs 00:40:00[laughs], who were doing this as some sort of like, fantasy, like, you know, like a hobby kind of thing, and there was just like a lot of of exploitation and poor treatment of workers in that field. And it also just paid horribly and was just not sustainable. I think in part because a lot of people 00:40:30who work in--who traditionally have worked in that field are like wealthy women--women with wealthy husbands who don't need to work. But anyway, so that was like also a bust, and so I have been working in technology for over a decade, which I think is also quite fraught in many ways like, there's obviously a lot of ethical problems in the world of tech as we have been seeing 00:41:00go down with Facebook and Google and so on. But it definitely pays better! Like, you know, and I think that people who have very sharp critical thinking skills, and who can like, empathize with others and reason through a problem, and have a lot of like tenacity around like reasoning through problems are very good in this world. And I kind of stumbled into it, but it's been, 00:41:30 in some ways, it's given me a lot of access to like, ideas and also to, like, understanding systems that I think is really good. So, yeah, now I direct a design department for an agency in New York and like, I would not have predicted that this is where I would end up in my career, but I'm pretty 00:42:00 excited about the field still, I think there's still a lot of potential here. So, yeah, but I think, I mean I think it's still quite risky in many ways, like, in terms of the like, ethical problems. But I think it's a mistake to think that you can kind of like, opt-out of the moral problems in any 00:42:30industry. I wish I had like an easier answer about this that was like, "And then I did this, and now I have like, a great job that I'm sure is helping the world, and also pays well," but I don't. I only have one of two of those things.

PAUSE: [Interview is concluded due to time constraints, and resumed on November 17th, 2021.]

Jasmine: Let's see. [Question] number four is--we did number three last, so 00:43:00picking up with number four: "Are there any ways in which you think your life would be different, had you gone to a more typical liberal arts college?" Liz: This is a great question, I think. Yes, I think that, you know, something that was hugely influential for me, was community governance, and I think that if I had gone to a more typical liberal arts college, I wouldn't have 00:43:30had that experience. And, while it doesn't, there's no, you know, direct clear through-line from being involved with Antioch-style community governance to like, what I do now or any specific aspect of my life, it's not like I went on to go into politics or something, I think that there's a kind of 00:44:00attitude that comes from having that experience, like an approach to life about, you know, that's sort of like, focused on having that kind of community power that I do think has been really influential in the way that I've sort of approached things, let's say. Yeah, and I think just like, in general, you know, Antioch is very scrappy, and it was very much not about preparing 00:44:30[laughs], I sort of hesitate to say this, but I think that Antioch is like the classic liberal arts education in that it really like, develops an approach to life and prepares students to be adaptable. But not necessarily to have some specific kind of, you know, it's not like a, it's not like a technical 00:45:00college. It doesn't like prepare students for some particular path, you know. Jasmine: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I think that's been also been a common theme expressed through some of the other interviews as well. And so, you know going back to what you said about the community governance, you know, and how that's kind of carried on with you. Would you say maybe that that 00:45:30instilled maybe ideas around like, autonomy or, you know, more, democratic ways of living? If that makes sense. Liz: Well, I think what it does is, it shows you that if you get involved with a community and if you sort of 00:46:00exercise your power, you can have a big effect on how systems operate and I think that, you know, it's sort of like the training wheels of, sort of civic engagement, I guess, or like, community activism or just being like, able to intervene in quite complex or entrenched systems and be able to alter 00:46:30them. And I think that's really valuable. I don't know if there's like a specific thing about autonomy or something like that. I think it's more about understanding that systems, including political systems, are just made up of individual people, like, working together and the sort of like, whatever sort of structure has been given to them or that they've decided on, 00:47:00and that it's possible to--that those aren't static, like they change all the time. And it's possible for a person or a group of people to intervene and alter the course of how those those structures operate, you know, in a sort of like, open and democratic way, like, you know, not in a sort of, like, yeah, in a sort of like, collaborative fashion. Like, let's work with 00:47:30what's here, but let's change the direction. Or change the process. Jasmine: [Yeah, that's] awesome. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, and then I think we can move on to question number five, which is, "Is there any message that you would give to the current and future students of Antioch if you could, and any message for the current and future LGBTQ+ youth in general?" Liz: Oh, I 00:48:00think I already gave like, an impassioned speech about love in our previous interview, and I was like, "You know, sometimes you kind of think you're never gonna like, meet someone and like have a, you know, a love story that's not so--that's like, you know, really magical, but then it happens and it's so great." But maybe that's like, maybe that's a little too sappy for 00:48:30interview number two. Um, yeah, I mean, I think like, you know, I've been sort of like following this sort of dialogue with Judith Butler and I think that, you know, she's really right that like, queer people continue to be a vanguard against fascism, and it's really important that we have solidarity with each other and that we understand that we are a sort of, important force 00:49:00against, like, you know, patriarchal oppression and fascism [laughs] and like, maybe that sounds a little grandiose, but I think it's really true that like, it's important for--that like queer people are really important, and that it's, we should like, stick together and support each other. And it's important to like, always maintain a queer community. And I think that it's 00:49:30sometimes hard, because communities get like really fractured. And sometimes there are these like sort of political battles, or like, personal relationship battles that cause schisms in communities, but I think that like, you know, it's important that we sort of, stay with that struggle, and like not fall 00:50:00into some trap of sort of exorcising people from our community because we disagree with them. Like it's important to like, maintain open lines of communication and dialogue, and yeah, and be inclusive. Yeah, I think that like, that is something that is true about Antioch, I mean, you know, it's also a place where there's a lot of like, struggle about political ideology, but 00:50:30it's also a place where that struggle is really like, considered central to the experience and people, you know, can--it's also partially because they're like, trapped in the middle of Ohio, but people have to kind of continue to be in a relationship with each other even when it's difficult, and I think that's really crucial. So, I guess my advice is like, queer people are really important, and like, don't forget that, and also, honor your community, and 00:51:00also, even when people are annoying, it's really important--or obnoxious or like fucked up, it's important to maintain the connection of community with them, you know, where you're able, you know, where it's possible. Jasmine: [That's] great, and I appreciate that message. And you know, I usually like to 00:51:30leave that last question there, since, you know, it's not directed towards me, it's towards the Antioch students in general, LGBTQ+ youth in general. So, I'll leave that one as is, and then you know, I like to ask if there's anything else that you wanted to include in the interview, you know, that we didn't get to talk about. Yeah, just anything at all that you'd like for to be included? Liz: Um, I don't know. I mean, I hope that--I know that sometimes 00:52:00like, when you're immersed at Antioch, it can seem sort of, I think it can seem all-encompassing, and then also, sometimes it becomes something to struggle against. And maybe that's valuable, in it's way, but it's also, I think it's also important to like, keep in mind that, you know, while Antioch is part of society and thus is fucked up or problematic in the ways that the rest 00:52:30of society is, it's also like a really important place, historically and right now, I think, and I think that we should honor that. And I also think that, yeah, and that like students shouldn't underestimate the power that they have to make things, and do things, and it's like, just so crucial to, you know, 00:53:00make and do like, as much as you can. Maybe that sounds silly, but it's like, it's really a special place, and a special time, in order that like, where you can really expand your ability to, like, you know, your identity and 00:53:30like, what you're capable of doing, and I think it's important to take advantage of that. I think my like, my regrets of my time at Antioch are that I didn't do more, you know, and that I like, didn't push myself harder and expand my opportunities and horizons more. I think there's like so much that's possible, and so I guess my like, last pieces of advice are like, that Antioch 00:54:00is really special and important, and students should try to support it. It's not, you know, it's not a--it's gone away before and it's possible it could 00:54:30happen again. And so, you know, it needs help, it needs like everyone's help, and that, and also that, like you should just, like, do as much as you can. Yeah.