Xochitl Flores

JASMINE: Okay, this is Jasmine Timmester interviewing Xochitl Flores, and it is November 2nd, 2021. And thank you for being here. To get us started, I'm going to go ahead and ask you about your early life before Antioch, you know, if you could just share a little bit about that, and maybe about how like, you heard about Antioch, why you chose to come to Antioch?

XOCHITL: [Audio is briefly distorted] Yeah of course. I'm from Texas. 00:00:30My parents are from Central Mexico. I [unclear] born and raised. I went to like a small charter school. And they--it was like a sort of prep school for, what the--like you know, just under... what did they call it? Basically 00:01:00kids who didn't have money. And it was, [unclear] I think at the time, I like, I learned to like--I worked better in that small community and I think having a smaller community was good for me, most of the time. And there was, in my school--well like my school district of the charter school system had a relationship with different colleges like across the country. And Antioch was 00:01:30one of those colleges. Antioch like from like our college [unclear], I don't think it's currently existing, but when I was going to... when I was in high school, we did have that, the relationship between my school and Antioch. So 00:02:00just hearing about it, like from these college fairs, like different times, it kind of stuck out to me, especially at the time in high school I was really considering working, and something art related. And I like, being also like a different sort of, like art programs, like art classes, like in and out of the school [?] I just said, I [unclear] get this message but I got like the sort of idea that like, you know, the art world is very competitive 00:02:30and I couldn't just make it if I only had a degree, I would also like need experience, and you know with the co-ops, I think that's what draws like most people. Like one of the biggest, if not the biggest things was the co-ops. And I was like, that's experience, that's great, I would graduate with having experience, and that would like, you know, make me stick out. That's like, that's one of the biggest reasons if not like [the biggest reason I came to Antioch].

JASMINE: Yeah that makes sense. And I think we'll get into the first 00:03:00main question, then. "Antioch College has a reputation for having one of the most radically progressive campus cultures in the country. Would you agree with this reputation, and what was it like, arriving as a new student?"

XOCHITL: That's a very interesting question and you're not wrong. How do I put this? Antioch's very interesting, and [brief audio distortion] the 00:03:30people who claim--let me put this in a way that's respectful. I mean, it has a range of people who, I mean, really I think that's--I don't know how else to put it, that they claim at least to be somewhere on the left or in some way progressive. For the majority, 95%. You know, you have those, you have that one Republican in, you know, someone's class or something. [Audio distortion] 00:04:00You know, the libertarian--well not--I'm sure there's not libertarians. But generally, I think they consider themselves something progressive. You know, like and, the handful of communists there, I think makes people, I think it's sort of... I think it's funny in some ways how like having a handful of communists and having a handful of LGBT people, gives the idea to some people 00:04:30that Antioch is an extension then, just in it's framework, like radical in it's framework, like queer on which I don't unfortunately think is the 00:05:00case. I think in some ways Antioch was... It is a good place--hmm, I think in some ways, Antioch does allow space for some progressive ideas and practices, 00:05:30 but unfortunately, there's other areas that Antioch, unfortunately doesn't--it's not as active in its, like, in progressive practices if that makes sense. I know it's very broad, I can get into that exactly what the poi--not 00:06:00exactly, but clear--I can get into that later in a clearer way. Yeah, also, I don't think it's just Antioch, I think also for--I think that that area has like an interesting history that I even don't even know too much about. I think there's like, you know, just pockets of--I think people think of Ohio and people just think, "Yeah, Ohio is just corn and that--and white people, and 00:06:30Republicans." Which is just really classist, you know, racist, and like, misunderstanding like you know, the settler-colonial history of Ohio, you know like the indigenous people of Ohio, and you know, that community has been living in Ohio and you know, Miami Valley region. So [audio distortion] at 00:07:00least there's been some sort of continuation or at least there's been some sort of... There's some sort of pattern of people who [audio distortion] who are down on their luck and who try to push radical practices. I'm not sure I answered your question completely, I think basically, Antioch basically I think would consider itself progressive, and it holds some people--may--it has, who 00:07:30maybe call themselves, like, radicals. But unfortunately in my time there I didn't thoroughly see the sort of radical care in the community that would have been, like the most important thing, I think, for a student or anyone in the community.

JASMINE: Yeah, that's fair. And yeah, I think I understand, you know, what you 00:08:00mean about just because a school might have like a larger LGBT population, doesn't necessarily mean that structurally it's much different or any different from another institution. When thinking about, you know, how Antioch in general, like the community the administration, when thinking about 00:08:30that and how Antioch treats, you know, LG--the LGBT population on campus, do you see much of a difference between the, you know, the administration, the structure of the institution, how that treats LGBT people, and just the--how might else you call it?--the non-administration, I guess, you 00:09:00know, the students, the staff, the faculty, how they treat the LGBT population? Do you see them both as lacking or, you know, is it more the administration or, you know, I don't know if you care to elaborate on that idea at all?

XOCHITL: So, is your question is like, is Antioch much better basically than the 00:09:30average college in how they treat LGBT students? Is that your question?

JASMINE: That cou--that's like one aspect of it. Comparing it to other schools is fair, although, you know, not everyone, sees many colleges so it's kind of hard to compare, but I think really what I'm curious about is kind of honing in on like if it is like more of an administration problem with how 00:10:00LGBT students are treated, or if it is, you know, just a general like, culture issue of like, not only is it the administration but other students, or staff, or faculty, if that makes sense, you know?

XOCHITL: I mean. I would say it's a mixture of both. I don't know, it was 00:10:30interesting how at least officially [?} Antioch was LGBT-friendly. You know, this big emphasis on using people's correct pronouns, you know, people would ask for your pronouns more than they would [audio distortion] you know, 00:11:00like people would outside of Antioch. But like in certain practices it wasn't as, I don't know it wasn't just as--they didn't necessarily look out for--how do I...? It was [audio distortion] still hard being an LGBT student at Antioch, which you know, I think that by itself isn't necessarily--I mean, duh, it's going to be hard, you know, to be a new student in college. But unfortunately, it was sort of, especially disappointing the way it 00:11:30was difficult being LGBT at Antioch. And specifically when I--I don't want to just say LGBT just like that [unclear] difficult being trans at Antioch. I can't speak much on the experience of being a trans man or transmasculine person, but I can at least on being a trans woman and transfeminine person. And I 00:12:00don't like--I'm very impressed and I'm very happy for you Jasmine, because like, [audio distortion] I don't really know many people who've made it though Antioch who are trans women. Like, I'm sure there are, but you're like, at least you're 00:12:30the one, like, I'm the closest contact with, that's a trans woman, that's made it as far as you have at Antioch, because I mean, it's... it just hasn't been very [audio distortion] safe to be a trans woman at Antioch just to 00:13:00put it bluntly. In a wide variety of ways. So people might use your correct pronouns, but they treat you as aggressive like, like they just--out of proportionate. It's even like, le--like I even saw for a white trans woman, like their whiteness didn't save them from transmisogyny. And like that, I think 00:13:30that's like the, I think that's like the reason like I can't see myself going back to Antioch, is that I just don't think... I think my well-being would be in jeopardy if I went back to Antioch, unfortunately, like I think my health from my--I think, at best, my health would be at jeopardy, and at worst, my safety would be at jeopardy. I was harassed when I was at Antioch, by people 00:14:00who went to the school, people just like in the community, and that was before I was even out, like as a trans woman, or I didn't see myself as a trans Chicana. That was just being like a non-binary, you know, gay Mexican kid. So, like in words, I think people were, you know, allies. But in 00:14:30practice, like, you know, and like a trans woman would like, you know, maybe like, say something kind of loud, maybe they'd just be like loud or like, you know, do something and somebody wasn't comfortable, and they would quickly, whis--you know, start whispering about, you know, "This person's kind of 00:15:00aggressive," or "This person makes--" you know. I don't know. Like this, like they just made it seem like that person was just like, how do I say that? That's always a [unclear] like, has been used for women like us. It just, something quick, like it's in the back of their tongue. So then when aggression is shown to us, it's like what option do we have. I think a lot of 00:15:30people are well-intentioned like, I don't say this like as if, I don't say this in like a damning way of like every single person in the community, like every person is misogynist, every person wished for the un-well-being of trans women or things like that. I think a lot of people wish--I think a lot of people had good intentions. But unfortunately, I think, just how Antioch 00:16:00operates, our well-being wasn't on the--wasn't in practice on the forefront. And that's not exclusive to trans people. I mean, it just makes sense like, like in conclusion like that that would be one of the results of just how Antioch runs. Like this effect on trans women isn't just like a quirk of Antioch. 00:16:30Like I think it speaks of Antioch, unfortunately, just how it broadly runs. Like a little before I left I remember like, you know, the pay was being cut drastically for professors. My favorite professors, you know, left. That was--I 00:17:00think that was part of why I also left, or at least I didn't see myself as wanting to come back, was because those professors--because how small Antioch is, I wasn't necessarily relying on one person for my entire major, but losing those people, it was just like... it would make my education a lot harder 00:17:30trying to find someone to like, help me with, like what I was trying to like, study specifically. And I think a lot of ways, I mean a lot of ways I think that's how Antioch runs in that it's, I mean, it's--I don't really care to say, is someone truly in their hearts well-intentioned or not, are they really in their head well-intentioned or not. I don't think you can only know, I don't think that's very productive conversation, of like what's really going on in someone's head. I would like to think that the majority of Antioch is well-intentioned but, something in the way the school is run, it does 00:18:00not care for its community at large. It's not just, it's not just trans women who are students--it's, you know, people in the kitchen, people who are professors, people who are adjuncts, like it's the whole school. So like, with 00:18:30 having that sort of framework, it makes sense that in that process, it wouldn't really invest itself as much in the well-being of trans women because unfortunately it's not invest--it's not invested itself enough in the well-being of the community at large. And unfortunately, that shows up particularly and dangerously for trans women.

JASMINE: Yeah I appreciate you sharing that. Do you think that it is something 00:19:00unique to Antioch, in some way, not giving enough care to the community, or, you know, is that something maybe more typical to, you know, institutions similar to Antioch?

XOCHITL: I'm sorry to keep saying this answer I feel like it's a bit of a cop 00:19:30out, but I think it's a bit of both in that... I mean, like I said earlier, of course it's gonna be hard to be LGBT, an LGBT person at, in college, you know, in a small town. Most people aren't from--well, most people don't--aren't from Yellow Springs, just moving a town you're not from. It's pretty small. And you're LGBT, it's gonna, you know it's gonna be hard. I don't 00:20:00want to put it out of proportion of like, the difficulty it is, you know, of how hard it is to be at Antioch, or in what ways it's hard. And I think also just the constant, you know, financial sort of panic, and Antioch does--is part of it. Like my first semester at Antioch, we didn't have like--like I 00:20:30didn't have a person to, I forget the exact word, I think basically just like a counselor you can just go to. Like a campus counselor. Which was really hard! You know, like I was I thought I could take 18 classes, or not 18 class--18 hours. And I could not. And that, you know, being a Mexican kid, at a PWI [primarily white institution], far away from home, you know, I needed a 00:21:00counselor [laughs] and it's unbelievable that there was not a counselor my first semester, for like the first semester freshman. Like that's, like, how does that happen? But it's otherwise, I don't really understand our--I wouldn't really say it's... like it's part--it's money, part of it. You know, you can say, "Oh w--sorry, we just can't afford, you know, enough care--we can't afford 00:21:30enough like, resources for trans women because we know we just don't have the money for it in the budget," you know, and that's one thing and that's, that's one thing. But, in other ways it's just, I think it invests itself too much in being... How do I say this? When there are people who are dangerous 00:22:00to the community at Antioch, it's difficult to go to the processes that are existent--that exist at Antioch, to try to find some sort of justice, 00:22:30safety, and like effect--like just effective, like effective in how things run. By that, I mean, like if there was, [sighs] like despite Antioch's reputation of being progressive and a home to radicals, when there's like a 00:23:00racist Professor. It's, it's difficult for students to find justice against that, even when it's blatant, or when it's not blatant, whatever it's... I don't know it just, it's just the surprising in the ways in which... It's--like how difficult it is to find justice and I think some people might 00:23:30say, "Oh, that's just how things are. That's just how these offices run," you know, like I can't think of the exact word for it, it's been years since I've been there. But, you know like, the processes like that you know, protect racialized people. You know, it's great that we have that. But it's 00:24:00still unfortunately just not, it's still very difficult, it's still like, very, like, even ineffective in practice. Like, people, I've known people who tried to file, who tried to file it [a racial discrimination report]. And how just much longer it's taken like for just, for it to even get through. Like, not even just like taken like, starting like the actual process of like, "Okay, let's hear what happened?" Just like finding the paperwork. Like why does that 00:24:30take like, why is it taking so long--like than it's supposed to, like, the amount of time? Or when there's, you know, people who, like either abusers, or if they're people who are known to harass women, you know, to stalk 00:25:00women. Unfortunately, they, there's still a space for those, [audio distortion] there's a space for--If there's a space for misogynists, to an extent at Antioch, what space is there for women at Antioch? What space is there for racialized--specifically, racialized and trans women, and trans feminine people, at Antioch? It's almost like, I don't know, it's very... 00:25:30[distortion] Just thinking about it, of how, like on a day to day, you get a sort of feeling you're--you get a sort of expectation of how progressive people are, but then it's like, so, why is this person, who targets 00:26:00women, who targets racialized people, given space here? And it just, it feels 00:26:30like there's this [intent ?] tries to give space to everyone, but you can't, you can't do that. I think it's a sort of very liberal--by "liberal" I mean like the, I mean, you [Jasmine] know what I mean but like I'll say for the record like, you know, like by "liberal", I think... The "liberal" [laughs] the rest of the world uses, you know, like very center, leftist--

JASMINE: Classical liberal?

XOCHITL: Yes classical liberal [laughs]

JASMINE: [Laughs]

XOCHITL: The response of like, let's hold space for like--"all voices matter". And let's platform all voices, let's platform all people. And from there, that's where democracy comes from. Said with sarcasm. That would be a lot easier, that'd be, I guess, I wouldn't say it'd be great, but it'd be like, easy 00:27:30if that's how things happened. But unfortunately when space is given to violent people, when space is given to people who feel comfortable and entitled enough to just--who feel entitled to women, either... I don't want to get into it. I think that says enough that, if you give space to people who feel 00:28:00entitled to racialized people, who give--feel entitled to trans women and trans feminine people, there is not going to be space for that many racialized, for that many trans, for that many trans feminine people. And I feel in that way it sort of sticks out. Like, it's a bit, like, I think it's harder going to Antioch than it is other colleges, from my experience. [Unclear] It's 00:28:30hard being trans anywhere. But I think Antioch, despite having the rhetoric, does not have the practice of looking out for the well-being of women, 00:29:00of racialized women, or trans women and trans feminine people.

JASMINE: Yeah, that's fair. And, yeah, I think a lot of what you said, like with not having a counselor when you arrived on campus, and that sort of thing, I mean, I think that is kind of one of the most difficult things 00:29:30possibly with Antioch is just how, you know, it's one thing to have like a fair amount of complaints about different aspects of the school, but when so many of those complaints involved, you know, very fundamental like, basic needs, like just having a mental health resource, or having heating in your dorm in mid-October, these different issues, I mean that just gets so exhausting. It's one thing to be complaining about like, "Oh, the gym is closed for a week," or something like that. But when it's, you know, you don't even have a warm place to rest at the end of the day, you know, it's a whole different 00:30:00thing. And I also know what you mean about that, making space for, essentially for violence.

XOCHITL: And really they--sorry to cut you off, I was just saying, I mean it's just harmful, to--the idea that you can entertain both sides and think you can come to some sort of--and think it can be safe for oppressed 00:30:30peoples. Like of course in processes, like if I filed a complaint against somebody, or filed something against somebody, there's going to be, in the process, "Okay, what really happened?" And you know, that is going to be traumatic, and unfortunately, in some ways it's, you're going to have to go through the process if you want some--you want that filed--if I want that filedt against X person, you know. But unfortunately just the results 00:31:00I've seen from it, it's more... It entertains the per--this other person, it entertains... Trying to find a way to say this. I mean it basically 00:31:30just entertains people who are harmful to community, you know, like, I don't know, it just, I never filed anything against somebody, just because like, I mean I saw how things ran, or just, I don't want to go through the trouble. I mean, it's weird because people think of Texas as like, we'll think of Texas and like "Oh my God, Texas, the worst place to be a racialized person, 00:32:00worst place to be an LGBT person," and yeah it is, it's, let's not sugarcoat it, it's hard--it can be hard, for certain place--I mean Texas, it's so huge it ranges, you know, but I experienced more like, homophobia, transphobia, racism in this little liberal town than I did back home. I mean back home, it's a big city, but I mean there's areas where you're like, hey, maybe don't go 00:32:30there, if you're an oppressed person, racialized, particularly, particularly Black, even, because that's where some people who are the KKK might be, or that's people who, you know, are wildly not safe [laughs] for people of color. And then, here, I go to this college who I didn't have--I didn't think it was going to be a walk in the park, I mean I knew it was going to be hard being a person of color, being a Chicana, in a predominantly white 00:33:00institution, I didn't have... How do I say this? I mean I wasn't like, I wasn't trying to see myself, I wasn't trying to like--I came in knowing that this was going to be hard, and somehow it exceeded those expectations. You know, like, getting like, cat-called by like white women, like just on the street, middle of the day, like, people just trying to feel me up at parties, 00:33:30I was like, why don't you like, why? Like, well-known abuser, like disgusting, like don't like, I don't know. It just... I feel like sorry for like, I might have gotten a bit off track. Just, I just wanted to say that, you can't entertain everybody and think that with that practice, you will be 00:34:00able to be a safe space. Because unfortunately to have a safe space, you're going to have to be unsafe to certain things. You're going to have to be unsafe to racism, misogyny.

JASMINE: [Yeah, for sure.] I think it was Karl Popper who said you must be intolerant of intolerance. So I totally know what you mean. I 00:34:30think--and don't worry, also, about, you know, getting off track and whatnot because it's all, it's all been very relevant and I think, good to include, so I appreciate it. Think we'll go ahead and go on to the second question, and that is, "How do you think this culture, the campus-culture affected you during your time attending the college and your life beyond?" And then the second 00:35:00part of the question is, "Did it affect your understanding of your gender and sexuality?"

XOCHITL: [Could you repeat] the first part of the question?

JASMINE: Mhmm! [Jasmine repeats.]

XOCHITL: Okay. And the second part was--what was it again?

JASMINE: [Jasmine repeats.]

XOCHITL: Okay, of course. I'm not sure, I might have hinted at this earlier, but I mean not really actually. But I mean, despite how critical I am of Antioch, [Audio distortion] and how disappointed I know I've come across, I mean it hurts to say that because I loved Antioch. I love learning at Antioch, I 00:36:00think that's even why I've entertained the idea of ever going back, before. Was that I just loved how I learned at Antioch, I just, I feel like I've learned... I think the way I learned was the most productive than in any other space that I've experienced, or at least one of the most productive spaces. Learning at Antioch was--the way I learned at Antioch, the way things are taught at Antioch, I think, was one of the most productive ways that I've learned than 00:36:30in any other spaces. And Antioch, I mean it was, it's part Antioch, you know, part just college experience of like, "discovering yourself" [giggles]. I think every trans person has some sort of variation of this, or something, 00:37:00you know. [Unclear], like saying, like, "Oh, when I was--I knew I was whatever gender when I was like, when I was little or something." And I know when I was five, I remember saying like,"Oh, I'm a girl," or thinking I am a girl because like, in my own like, you know, five-year-old head because I was like, um, have 00:37:30you seen Kim Possible? Yeah I want to do the splits. That's not something boys can do. But you know, that's the way [unclear], that's the limited way I articulated gender in my head, and everyone else was like, "Well, boys can do splits too," and I was like, "Ummmm, I mean, it's not the same. Whatever." And you know, just, I think most trans people I think early on--and I don't mean to like, you know, explain to you by just saying this for the record, I know, I don't like to come across as explaining gender to somebody who understands 00:38:00gender very well. I mean, you must understand gender in some--you must be well-versed in gender in some way to be a trans person since, you know, you have to like, you know, explore this. But um, I mean, basically what I'm trying to say is that you know, I had kind of battled with--not "battle" that sounds so dramatic, but I had been trying to grapple what does gender mean for me--or not even want to--grappling but not wanting to grapple with gender, because that's, I mean, that's pretty intense. I think sometimes we--I say we as 00:38:30a, you know, Western society in the 2020s, in our time, you know, in our time and place basically. Like broadly, I think that's like the main sort of, rhetoric, is that gender and sexuality you know, are separate. And in that way, some people, it's easier for them to grapple with sexual orientation 00:39:00because that's, you know, you understand it, it's like, okay, that's who I like. But then gender like oh that's who I am? That's a big, that's big! You know, and that's how I saw it at the time. Living at Antioch it helped me better understand myself at the time I identified with being non-binary, I 00:39:30probably thought non-binary... I'm not binary [?]. I thought that that helped to explain my gender experience. I no longer think that but I mean, that was still pretty crucial in my development as a trans woman and just as a person. And I mean, being Antioch helped me understand my--I don't know, it 00:40:00just... Antioch's interesting, I think that it can help some people find a space for themselves to understand their gender, unders--a better understand, or like, at least to start questioning, you know, the world and politics. Despite my experience at Antioch and despite not seeing myself 00:40:30 going back any time soon, unless like, Antioch radically changes, or I'm able to like radically change in a way that I'll be safe. You know, it really did like, help me. I mean, even they--I don't want to say "they" because 00:41:00I don't want to give the credit to all of Antioch, because I think it was people there who helped me better understand my gender, my gender experience and also better question the politics I held at the time, or better question, how I saw the world. I could really, coming out at Antioch, I really like, what 00:41:30I really value was the sort of framework, political framework, I got out of that, I got out of not necessarily in the classroom, what I got, you know, from my peers, from my trans, racialized peers, from my LGBT peers. I mean this is a framework that I continue to use to this day. And I don't know if I 00:42:00would have had this framework, if it hadn't been for Antioch, and I'm very grateful for it. Because it's the framework that keeps me hopeful. I think that's really important. I think it's radical to have hope. Hope based in something of course. It's not really radical to be hopeful without [dog barking] 00:42:30any sort of--sorry about that.

PAUSE: [Brief technical issue]

XOCHITL: I mean Antioch was, again it's not just Antioch as a whole, it was not everybody, or was not, I don't want to give credit to--I want to give credit where credit is due, you know, like--well, that's not the right word. But I want to give credit to the people like you know, that really helped--or at least the kind of people who helped me, you know? Than just say, "Oh, everyone at Antioch helped me in my political and gender journey," because 00:43:00that's not true. I think without crucial people, I would not be where I am today, and I would not have the certain hope that I have today. And what's your first question again? I want to make sure like I actually addressed it.

JASMINE: Yeah, it is just more general. "How do you think this culture affected you during your time attending the college and your life beyond?" So you kind of touched on it.

XOCHITL: Maybe there's a bit more, because, I mean I--this was the more positive answer before but I'll go back at you [?]. Anyways, [sighs], I mean I even then, I think despite how small Antioch is, there's still like different cultures present if I remember. Which is also interesting because you know, peop--it's a college, so people graduate, people come and leave. So the culture 00:44:00is of course, always changing, and some, unfortunately, sort of, aren't really present anymore, and some others might be present. Then there's even like, you know, [unclear] semester people go on their co-op. So there's that. Unfortunately the culture, I think, [distortion] I mean I think 00:44:30culture is just pretty interesting to think about. So I don't think it just like, it doesn--cultures doesn't just happen out of thin air. It's crazy, you know, like material conditions. Unfortunately, I just, I didn't really feel... I think I said this before but, the culture at Antioch... I think 00:45:00the culture Antioch, tried to be well-intentioned, but unfortunately, was not really properly and effectively looking out for the well-being of the community, which does not create a healthy culture. I mean, it's a mix, you 00:45:30know, it's not just one, you know, clear--I'm not trying to say you sort of, you are trying to assert this, I just, you know, for me trying to answer the question. I don't know, I don't see myself coming back because of the culture and the way things are ran. And that, you know, there's a--I mean it 00:46:00kind of goes back to what I said before, like. you know, holding space for people who are unsafe unfortunately. Or also just like, you know, not really having the proper sort of systems and resources. Which is, which does 00:46:30not make it a place where everyone can then go, you know, I think that very, very much limits who can realistically, statistically, you know finish at Antioch. This isn't down to like, you know, I think going to college 00:47:00should be hard in that... [Unclear] I don't mean to say that, I'm not saying it should be hard, but I think, you know, it's just to have [?] a college be competitive. They should not be competitive, and like, you know, when your [?] health resources, and resources in trying to meet you like your actual needs in the classroom, your [unclear] needs in the classroom. And it's also very conflicting and it's sort of almost heartbreaking because it's--I'm 00:47:30very grateful for the people who did help me at Antioch, you know, like it was--my professors there they--I could see they really cared, you know, despite not really getting paid enough. Or much at all. You just... I mean it just sort of like, even like just for me like, you know, trying to access the 00:48:00resources, it hurt, you know, to sort of see like, people who try to bend over backwards, you know, to try to meet my needs and meet the needs of others. Trying to make up for... How do I say this? I mean, I think a lot of p--because I don't--I think the people who are at Antioch, who really do care, 00:48:30who really do put in the work for the well-being of the community. But unfortunately, it has to be a system, a change in how the system of--a change in how Antioch at large is run. Because then so much is put on professors and on certain parts of the community to try to meet the needs of students, to try to meet huge needs. I think that people really tried to help me 00:49:00at Antioch and it really hurt to see, you know, how much they tried to help me and how--and still how that wasn't really--and still how, you know, how I had to leave. Let's see, I think the culture at Antioch was, in some ways, I really do appreciate some [unclear, distortion] of Antioch, of--I really 00:49:30appreciate the cultures that really try to look out for me, who tried to--or who did you know, I don't [to say] "try", who did mentor me. Who did their best in looking out for me, looking out for my well-being, looking out for my education and future. I think those a lot of people went above and beyond. That's the culture that I appreciate, I just, it's just disappointing having a 00:50:00culture that is as invested in the well-being of its community, and that's going to have, you know, a snowball effect in how that manifests.

JASMINE: I appreciate you sharing that. I think we will--so the next two 00:50:30questions, I'm not sure if there is much to talk about here since you're younger, and I think we kind of talked about the second one a bit, but I'll go ahead and I'll just read both of them and you know, let me know or stop me if you if you do think, you know, there's stuff you want to share about 00:51:00them, but it's also okay if we just go ahead and skip these two, because this has been, you know, a lot of good discussion. So the first one is, "Since graduation, have you built a family and--" of course, you know, you didn't "graduate" from Antioch, so, just ignore that part. "Since graduate--Since then, have you built a family and/or career? If so, do you relate, these aspects of your life to your time at Antioch in any ways?" And the 00:51:30second one is, "Are there any ways in which you think your life would be different, had you gone to a more typical liberal arts college?"

XOCHITL: I can sort of answer the first question--I can sort of answer these questions.

JASMINE: Okay!

XOCHITL: I have not felt family in the immediate sense the [audio distortion] sort of that the word family comes to mind, typically in mainstream 00:52:00rhetoric. But I also like to think of family in a sort of... I mean, in a, I don't know how else to say, just basically in a queer way, a community way. I feel like I have been able to... I mean of course I have a supportive family who's raised me, that's that's been there, and that's been amazing. But I've also been able to find some sort of non-related family back 00:52:30home, you know, among progressives. And that's been really helpful, progressives who I think look out for, well not who I think--who I know look out for people like me--who are people like me, you know? By that, I mean queer too 00:53:00[laughs] but also not just queer. These are--I've been able to find community basically back home, and I do see that community developing into, you know, family in this sort, of queer sense. See if [?], you know, you build a family. And the career--I think we just touched on this a bit earlier, before, I think, the interview I can't remember if it had started, but I've been going 00:53:30to Trinity College, and that's, in some ways that--I mean in a lot of ways that's really been hard, college, in general's just been hard because I think it's, I think it's hard for most people because I think most people do not get the resources throughout their lives, to be adequately prepared for college, for a college education, for being a college student, for the 00:54:00college... for living college just in the classroom. So even though I went to a school, they try to prepare under... I mean, I like, like to use like the word like, you know, "underdeveloped communities" because [distortion] they're not just naturally the way they are, these racialized and working-class communities, you know. I mean that's--I mean I'm getting off track and I don't 00:54:30want to get too into... Anyways, I went to a school that was working class, mostly poor, 99--like literally 99.99--maybe it's now, maybe now it's 98--it's basically very Mexican. A lot of Mexican students, mostly racialized, you know. The few who weren't Mexican [distortion] were--all the students were 00:55:00Mexican and Black. And other students too--sorry, going off track. Basically, I came from this environment that--they did not have the resources to prepare me for college. So I've had to teach myself how to be a good college student, what does that look like? How does that, what does that mean for me in 00:55:30practice? Because you can care about being a good college student, you can want to be a good college student but caring and wanting do not create necessarily. So I had to learn how to study, how to learn--how to balance, because I have--that's actually really--I just had to learn to find a--I think finding a balance was like really important, of like, okay look, try, do your best on this assignment, but also just turn it in when it's, you know, due, you 00:56:00know, don't beat yourself up about it. You know, just navigating the college system, I think that that's been pretty hard. Most people in my graduating class, you know, have not finished college. Most people at Anti--in my class at Antioch, class of 2021, did not graduate. I think there was like... 15 people? Maybe less? By the time I left Antioch, in my class, I don't think 00:56:30most of those people were still there, or have returned. So it's been frustrating, you know, not having graduated college already. It's 2021, I was, if I had been on track, you know, if I had stayed on that track, I would have 00:57:00graduated college this year. I mean, that's frustrating. But also, I'm proud of the, like, the work that I've put into myself and put into my education and my career. Because I haven't had the--even though, you know, 00:57:30that's not saying that everyone who does graduate has the resources, or, you know, was rich or, you know, went to the best schools, because the people who happen to make it, it's maybe it's a mixture of luck and also a mixture of, like, I don't know it's a, it's a smaller group of people who can act--who actually end up making it. Both because, you know, they're... Mostly 00:58:00because they have learned to be, you know, what it means to be a good student, but also they've been able to survive things they shouldn't have been able to survive necessarily or they mean, maybe they haven't been, you know, [unclear] in the sticks of things. You know, you can't just say--I'm sorry, I feel like I'm getting off track. Basically since I left Antioch, I've been able to build family, that's related and unrelated, who've been able to support me, 00:58:30and I've been working on my career, I've been working on my education, and I would like to see a career--or I'm working on a education, I know that education will help me in my career and I hope that career, you know, helps my community. I want to work in something that helps my community in some sort of way. And the second question, what was it again?

JASMINE: It was, "Are there any ways in which you think your life would be different, had you gone to a more typical liberal arts college?"

XOCHITL: I think it would have been different in a lot of ways. [Sighs] I mean, not so different in some ways. I mean... I think I'm just at 00:59:30a point in my life where I would have eventually have a better understanding of gender and what that means for me, and how you know, a big part of the obstacle was understanding how gender is racialized. I think I would have sort of--I could see that--I could see myself having to experience that at another college like, you know coming into myself, as a trans Chicana. Or at 01:00:00least having the beginnings of that. In some ways I don't know how muc--if I would have--I think I said this before but I--again, I reiterate, you know, I don't regret having gone to Antioch. I only--I mean I [distortion] could regret, you know, is those student loans, but it was... So basically, I mean 01:00:30 it played a key part and, in building the sort of framework that I 01:01:00use to understand the world. I mean since then I've really developed on that framework, and I've read--and I still been able to changed and developed it, and questioned it on my own. But I got that sort of framework at Antioch, thanks to the people who were close to me, that I still use to this day, that I 01:01:30don't know how much I would have gotten at any other typical--any other liberal arts college. And I really value that framework because that progressive framework really helps me have tangible hope. Because like, I mean, I hope I haven't come across like pessimistic in this entire interview, but I've said a lot of things like, you know--me, I've talked about how hard it is to be 01:02:00a trans, racialized person. To be a trans, racialized person you have to have some sort of hope because the world is hard on people like us, it's hard not--being racialized, it's hard being trans, it's hard being a woman. It's hard when all three of those experiences meet. So I'm grateful for the sort of person that I... that some communities at Antioch helped me develop 01:02:30into, helped me at least start develop into. I don't think--I don't necessarily have that sort of [unclear] a fruitful and productive experience necessarily at any other college. [Distortion] Did you have another question for me?

JASMINE: I just have one more core question. Oh, and I do want to mention, I almost forgot. One of the questions before, I forgot to say, so the one talking about how did the culture affect you, and did it affect your understanding of your own gender and sexuality, I also wanted to ask if, you know, if you had any co-op experiences that went along with that, you know, if 01:03:30you had any experiences like that that affected you or, you know, might have interacted with your Antioch experience in some kind of way.

XOCHITL: Yeah, so like how like how maybe a co-op experience or experiences helped me... could you repeat the question? I'm sorry.

JASMINE: [No problem,] so basically asking, you know, if you're, if you had any 01:04:00co-op experiences that affected you, you know, in any kind of way, really, but also, you know, can think specifically of like, you know, did it affect your understanding of your gender and sexuality, did it affect, you know, your relationship with Antioch or your overall Antioch experience, anything like that? It's okay if not.

XOCHITL: I mean yes, but also it wasn't--how do I say this?--I mean even then, when experiences happen that make--that in some way affect and influence how you understand your sexuality and gender, a lot of times they're not necessarily very direct if that makes sense. And they're tied to other 01:05:00material aspects or other aspects of who you are. For my co-op, I went--I was in the Bay Area. And that was interesting, I really liked my actual co-op work. It still makes me... I mean, I still consider, I mean my co-op work 01:05:30was in education. It was bilingual based, you know, based in like, art education. And I really loved that, I loved my actual work and environment there. That was great. Outside of work, I mean, in some ways, 01:06:00[distortion] you know the Bay Area and Antioch have some similarities, in how they have the sort of branding of, or at least some sort of reputation for being progressive and being a space for other progressives, being a space for LGBT people and oppressed peoples. And I didn't necessarily see that 01:06:30in the area. I mean, it's not something [unclear] reputation for, you know, I think people often hear how expensive the area is, I would tell people, you know, how I was living in someone's, like someone's garage, the living room, and they would be like amazed, like, how are you affording to have your own room? And you know, my room was like, my room was like, basically it 01:07:00was like a curtain separating where I slept, to the living room, next to the garage, like under like you know, their actual like house. And like that that was-- I mean actually, I was grate--don't get me wrong, I was grateful for that space. But in the Bay Area, I experienced the most blatant anti-homelessness that I've seen anywhere else. People just feel comfortable, 01:07:30you know, they would just assume, you know--I wasn't homeless but they, you know, been--in conclusion of then--in assuming, you know, but basically in conclusion of seeing me and thinking, "OK, another person who's not homeless, let me talk to this person and just tell them the most anti-homeless--" how do I say this? The most anti-homeless things, the most 01:08:00anti-houseless things, and that, it was so disgusting. So you have these people who thought they were progressive, these people who like call themselves queer, and here they were saying things that were extremely classist, that were extremely... People who--I don't know, I think it helped me understand my 01:08:30gender... Like, okay, so I'm trans, okay, so I'm bi, okay, so, [distortion] what does that mean? So are millions of other peopl.e How am I going to align myself? What does that mean for me? Because unfortunately, people have 01:09:00these sort of... unfortunately people who are also, you know, trans, racialized and then they align themselves with people who don't look out for other people like us, or who look out for people like them, even. And I saw that a lot in the Bay Area and it made me question what kind of person that I want to 01:09:30be? I don't necessarily call myself a queer person, but I mean, what kind of--even in the word queer, it's--the word "queer" and the the word "Chicana" and "Chicano" are both interesting and they sort of act as identifiers of certain oppressed groups while also having a sort of connotation of some sort of radical politics. [Unclear due to distortion] that, you know, 01:10:00washed out of that sort of practice and that sort of real meaning, or like, you know, any sort of relevant meaning, I mean that--not to say it's not relevant to say you're queer, I'm definitely not saying that or that it doesn't bring, you know, starting--or that it can't bring radical politics. So basically--sorry I [distortion] actually answer your question, but, living in 01:10:30the Bay Area, I experienced not just anti-homelessness, like I--not just hearing anti-homeless rhetoric, but I was also kicked out. [Distortion] Not directly, that's a whole other situation, I'm not sure we can fit that [?] in your interview, but I experienced [distortion]. It was very... how do I say 01:11:00this? I mean I experienced, like I can't really say it's one thing or the other, you can't say, "Oh this thing was racism and racism alone, or this was homophobia or transphobia by itself. Can't say-- these things overlap. They all sort of, they influence each other, you know, you know there's racialized transphobia [distortion] and homophobia, and I feel like I sort of 01:11:30experienced that. Well, not "sort of," I did experience that in the Bay Area, and I lost--I no longer had a safe place to stay. An eighteen-year-old in the Bay Area, not knowing where they're going to be the next couple of days--that yeah, that, that influenced how I understand my gender, because again, it made me try to think like, what kind of, like, okay, I'm trans, I'm 01:12:00Chicana, but what does that mean for me? And it really made me think of what kind of trans woman, what kind of trans Chicana, what kind of person did I want to be, and what do these things mean for me, and what do I want them to mean? I hope that answered your question, you can also feel--you're free to ask other questions or [unclear] on certain things.

JASMINE: Yeah, I just wanted to clarify, because you--there was one brief part 01:12:30where you kind of cut out there, and it was--it sounded like you said, well, I'm pretty sure you said you were kicked out from where you live. I don't know if you, like right when you said that, it cut out a little bit, and I just want to make sure that was like what you said or if you had anything else that wasn't that I missed.

XOCHITL: Yeah, I mean that sort of--I don't--I necessarily wouldn't go too into that.

JASMINE: Yeah don't feel like you have to.

XOCHITL: But I was and wasn't kicked out. I mean, I was made to feel like I could no longer--I was no longer welcome in this person's home, who was hosting me, for--I won't go into necessarily how much but, you know, it was a very good amount per month for, you know, the Bay Area and for the space. But 01:13:30yeah, I, living there, I guess like I shouldn't go into that too, but even then I feel like throughout my time at Antioch, I experienced Antioch even outside of Yellow Springs, I experienced Antioch in California, I experienced Antioch when I would go to, when I was in California and even, you know, in the living space I had, I would still experience progressive rhetoric, but in 01:14:00practice, a space where, that was negligent for an--I was 18! I was 18, living across the country of, you know, I was--I'm from Texas [audio cut] to 01:14:30California, and then because of an unfolding of events that largely had nothing--not largely, had nothing to do with me--until the end of it, it's kind of complicated. I could tell you [Jasmine] off the record sometime, but it was made clear to me that I was no longer welcome to the--at the home. And that was really hard because at first, when all these events quickly started 01:15:00to unfold, I tried my best to do all the like, you know, "right things", you know, I tried to, you know, tell my employer, you know, "Hey, this thing is happening, I've got nothing to do with it, it just started happening," and they seemed pretty understanding. I thought things would be okay and then, it started to be made kind of about me in the end, but, you know, I thought I was safe if I just agree with this person, or if I just like, you know, try to make this person feel heard, if I try to make this person feel like they were right, since that this person was like--it's hard to say what happened without 01:15:30really saying what happened. Basically, I just tried to s--you know, be like--I tried to say all the right things, and I tried to go to--"right things," which weren't the right things, but things that I thought they wanted to hear and I tried to make it sound genuine, I just--at the end of the day I was, despite how I felt that I was not being treated respectfully, despite 01:16:00 feeling like I was disrespected in a place where like, I just tried to like, you know, sleep and shower, and whatever. And I was grateful to have 01:16:30that space, I was grateful to, you know. I was grateful to have, you know, a bed to sleep on, so I was just trying to say that, you know, I was trying to do all the "right things", I was trying to say all the "right things". But, and I thought it was okay but then, it was made clear to me that, the person hosting me wanted me gone within a days. Excuse me, sorry. It was like--and they 01:17:00couldn't say directly because I'm not sure if some sort of contract or it'd just look bad, you know, of course, it would look horrible if, to kick out an 18 year-old for no really clear reason, besides some personal conflict 01:17:30that definitely had had nothing to do with this person--with me. But they strongly pushed in indirect ways they pushed that I was no longer welcome and I was--and became aggressive in showing that that, you know, that I was not welcome. And losing--and I was like at the end of my co-op, and I was 01:18:00like, I was break--I broke down! I was like, you know, I had a breakdown and I was crying and I was trying to call, you know, I contacted Antioch and contacted my employer, you know, and other students who had more experience at Antioch and co-ops and trying to like, "What do I do?" Because it's unfortunately it's not uncommon to have horrible experiences with the people who host you on co-ops, which I feel like, hey, like what do I even do in a 01:18:30situation like, I can't afford--like I have a few weeks, couple weeks left and even then, I can't afford to live here for like that little time left, like. I don't know it just like, it made me like, you know break down and think, "How could a person, you know, what are they--even though it wasn't 01:19:00explicit, really in practice, deny an 18 year old a safe space to live for two more weeks, two, three more weeks four [?] more weeks?" And that--I--that affected my, the framework I use to see the world, that affected my politics, my--how I understand myself as progressive, and in practice I mean 01:19:30that, that affects and influences how I see myself as a trans Chicana. What does being a trans Chicana mean? I can't separate being a trans Chicana from the realities of working class life, the realities of living in the US and with what that is like. So it made me think, who do I want to align myself? And 01:20:00what does it mean to be me, or what's it like in--I mean, I got a taste, you know, I got a, maybe like more of a taste of what it's like to be trans and racialized. And basically I just like, I really just like, I can't 01:20:30just like, I don't want to be like, you know, just saying all the, you know, "right things". But then in practice, not showing up for people like me, for people who aren't necessarily exactly like me but, you know, who are also oppressed, who also see the most brutal parts, or who may see the most 01:21:00brutal parts of white supremacy and patriarchy. It made me question what kind of like--I mean gender doesn't exi--me--my gender doesn't exist in a bubble, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. Gender exists, I mean for me I understand it to exist because of community. So that made me try to understand how I fit in community, how do I fit into the world? And how do I want to fit in the world? 01:21:30Unless you want me to expand on anything else that I've said?

JASMINE: I think that's great, what you've shared, yeah, I mean that's--it sounds of course like an extremely difficult situation to suddenly be put into, and I can see that would have a big impact on you, and you know, your 01:22:00development as just a young 18 year-old. With--so I have one more main question and then after that, you know, you can feel free to add anything else you may want to add that the questions didn't cover. This last main 01:22:30question is, "Is there any message that you would give to the current and future students of Antioch if you could? And any message for the current and future LGBTQ+ youth in general?"

XOCHITL: [Laughs] That's a lot of pressure, even then I feel like, I mean in some ways I've thought about this [distortion] because like when I came in and I was like, [unclear] time. And I was like, how do I show up for these 01:23:00people in ways that, you know, I feel like people didn't show up for me. Or even how do I show for people who have shown up--how do I show up for this new class that hasn't--did--the people who have shown up for me. Basically, how do I want... I mean [unclear due to distortion] that [unclear] at Antioch 01:23:30 I wasn't really active I mean I was, I think I've said this before but despite how critical I am of Antioch, I really [unclear due to distortion] at Antioch and the community at Antioch, I had a lot of respect [unclear]. I 01:24:00mean it's something that just have been done [?]. I know, oh this is so [unclear] but even at the time I was like, do I feel like it's even ethical to suggest it to the students who I went to high school with, 01:24:30Mexican students I went to high school with. Like, is this a place that I feel like it's ethical to recommend? And I know that that sounds kind of... can't think of the right word for it at the moment, but you know, I know it sounds a bit sort of daunting and dramatic and bemoaning [?]. I think the advice I would 01:25:00give to people at Antioch, to trans and LGBT students at large going into, or even if they're already at Antioch, I think it's sort of advice for like general students, even. It's just--I mean it's kind of obvious, but I don't 01:25:30think you can survive at Antioch without having community, but that's easier said than done, you know, having community. I think that's how people, you know, even stay as long as they do at Antioch because of the community they find. Unfortunately that small community [distortion] that we 01:26:00build [?] the needs that you have other medical, educational, and maybe like [unclear] needs that you have, or that one may have do you have. I would suggest--I would--I mean it's hard for me to suggest. I would also say, you know, don't feel like you have to make yourself smaller. I mean there's a 01:26:30lot of people--not a lot of people--I think at the end of my Antioch experience or at the end of like, you know, my official Antioch experience or like the end of my time there, I became pretty like, jaded and bitter, and I didn't like the person that I was when I was there. [Unclear] I was like, I was 01:27:00disrespectful and I was like, I mean, I was respectful, but I felt like I had to be like, on guard 24/7, and that was tiring! I feel like I don't think I was ever called aggressive, I don't know how many thought of me as aggressive, but just because of the way trans people and racialized people were treated as aggressive, and treated as agg--like, when you're treated as 01:27:30aggressive in that way, it's through aggression, whether it's explicit or through like, white tears, or through you know, like, a white sort of innocence. So you can't, sometimes trans people feel like they can't--that they have to shrink themselves. Or that they can't be assertive. I think it's hard to 01:28:00be assertive at Antioch as a trans person. That's especially not just as an LGBT person, as a trans person. Because people would people blow that--people distort that assertiveness. Or they can often at least. I saw that a lot of times with my trans peers. Those who came before and after me. I would 01:28:30say to, you know, push for what you need, you know. Don't hold back in trying to get your needs met, or don't hold back in like, being like, "This is what I need, and I'm going to get it," you know, for your needs and for being 01:29:00respected. I mean, yeah, I know it sounds pretty vague but basically, you know, I would--I mean I can't really recommend the same thing to every--LGBT is like such a wide, you know, experience, and also it does change, like, you 01:29:30know, it can change a lot, even with just a short period of time, like I remember like, [unclear] before my time, you know, there was--I'm not going to say a lot, but there was, you know, at least--there was an issue of biphobia like before I got there that I didn't experience, and I didn't really see that, at least the way it was described to me there whe--I didn't really see the biphobia described to me, that was present before me, when I was there. So, 01:30:00you know, I think some things do change, but I think, unfortunately, I don't really see it changing anytime soon for trans people, but I think it's going to be trans and you want to finish Antioch, I think you're going to have to be assertive and you're going to have to push for your needs, push so your needs are met, in ways that you shouldn't have to, but if you want to make it, then that's unfortunately what you have to do, and that should not--it's--I 01:30:30think some people might twist that in a sort of capitalist mindset of like, you know, "You just gotta grind hard," and there's this sort of mindset among oppressed people, or some oppressed people that you, like, you know, "Things are harder for us, but that means we just have to work twice as hard." I'm trying to think of a politically correct term. An appropriate term for the word "bullshit". That's nonsense, let's go with that. I think that's, I think 01:31:00that's really, honestly, disrespectful, actually--that's it, that clarifies it a bit more--to say that we have to meet really, it's not just, like, working twice as hard, it's very disrespectful, what you have to do to, you 01:31:30know, be able to get through Antioch, but I think those are certain things that you have to do unfortunately, just, you know, again, being assertive and like, you know, push so that your needs are met, in and out of the classroom, whatever those needs may be, and you're going to have to be on it, like, all the time. And just really don't feel like you have to--don't feel guilty about that, don't feel [sighs] like you have to shrink, because 01:32:00[distortion] people think certain things of you. Or, I mean yeah, just--I think basically it helps, at Antioch, if you're know yourself, really, if you know what you need, really you need to push for that constantly, if you want to make it through Antioch as a trans person. And really as any sort 01:32:30of student with any sort of gender experience. It's hard [?] but I think also, Antioch I think offers a great educational experience--a great experience in education. And I wish the best for any sort of--or for any LGBT 01:33:00people who may go, or who go to Antioch.