Byron Foster Interview 1

Hannah Bogard: So my name is Hannah Bogard and I'm interviewing today Mr. Byron Foster, on January 29th, 2015, as part of a collaboration between Kalamazoo College and the Southwest Michigan Black Heritage Society. So thank you so much, Mr. Foster, for taking the time to come out here and to be a part of our Engaging the Wisdom Oral History Project. So just to start us off by - could you maybe tell us your current address?

Byron Foster: My current address is 2669 Hunters Bluff, Kalamazoo, Michigan, 49048.

HB: And jumping off from there, thinking about your name, do any stories come to mind behind your family name?

BF: My family name? Oh, there's lots of stories there. My family is from the 00:01:00Bahamas, Nassau Bahamas, and years ago there was a pirate who came from Sweden. I'm not sure whether his capacity was slave or what have you, but he was on the ship from Sweden. And that was the first Byron, and the last name was Turnquest, that's on my mother's side. But there was a Byron then and there are probably about three or four Byrons other than that. And I have a cousin, the only other Byron in the area of Chicago is a Byron. And then I've carried my name onto my son who is also a Byron. So there's a history to my name.

HB: Quite a history. Are there any family stories that were passed down to you from previous generations that have been especially memorable?

BF: Yes. Quite a few, but I'll just kind of pick out one. We had a family reunion in Nassau. This goes back probably around 15 plus years ago. And some of 00:02:00the family members were kind of strictly of the English tradition or British tradition, very formal as far as I think how families came to be, what they are, where they are etc. And some others were a little more relaxed about their traditions. So the ones who were on the strict or rigid side had some problems with the family members that were illegitimately born. And the individual who came from Sweden had quite a number of kids. I think there were about maybe 32 of which 12 were legitimate so that kind of gives you an idea. So twelve people were kind of accepted by the British tradition and everybody else was accepted by the people coming on the other line of the family. That's a family story that got a lot of discussion.

HB: What year were you born?

BF: 1941.

H: And where?

BF: Born in Brooklyn, New York.

HB: When you think back to your childhood, what are a few of the earliest and sort of most tangible memories that come to mind?

BF: Going I guess really to -- well, I grew up, my mother and father were together, so I grew up in a two-parent home, which was, I think, very good when you look at a lot, I think, of what happens with families right now. So I was very blessed to have both my mother and father. Neither were college-educated, but both worked very hard. My father was a merchant seaman and my mother was a seamstress. And they provided for us. I'm an only child - no brothers, no sisters. And I think back to the years coming up that they helped to build self-esteem in me, although I was maybe in my early years a little bit shy, but I kind of, that changed over the years quite a bit. So I got to know myself a 00:04:00lot better, but the self-esteem they helped build lasted with me in my later years and I would say right through the present.

HB: Can you expand at all on that self-esteem and how that's played out?

BF: The self-esteem has played out to enable me to be more selective about, let's say, my friends. Growing up and growing up in New York you are exposed to a lot of things. It's a very fast-paced life. And due to, I think certainly, the way my parents raised me, I was in areas or neighborhoods where I very well could have been vulnerable to, let's say, maybe gangs or things like that, but they help keep me away from that. And due to the associations with friends that I had they would immediately let me know if they liked or did not like my friends and give me the reason for that. And so I would say that that was something that was very helpful and that has carried since, I would say, through 00:05:00my years going up to the service. I was not a leader at the time that I went in the service in the Air Force. But after I came out I came into my own very well and I pretty much determined, I think, what was right for me versus being a follower and having somebody else determine that for me. So that carries over from, I think, what they helped to build in me.

HB: Is there anything else you would like to add about sort of the specific ways that they have helped instill that self-esteem?

BF: Through organizations that they got me involved in. I was a Cub Scout, a Boy Scout; through that. There was an organization that is prevalent in pretty much the black community, an organization called Jack and Jill, which is more of a social club, but the parents are involved as well. My mother got into Jack and Jill and that means that I was what they call a Jack and Jiller. And we had Jack and Jill chapters in, I lived in Queens, we had it in Brooklyn, Manhattan, 00:06:00Bronx. All boroughs had Jack and Jill chapters and they had chapters all over the country. So that kind of was a means of being able to have a social life that was with a group of individuals that I think that I think chose a good path in life because a lot of them went on to do great things. One such one was Ron Brown who was the one who got killed in an airplane crash. That he was--he headed up the Democratic Party when President, the president has got to come back to me now, Hillary...Hillary...Clinton. Excuse me for the break. But when President Clinton was elected, Ron Brown was the chair of the Democratic Party. He was a Jack and Jiller going back in the years, back in New York. So those are memories and I think that's something that my parents did to help instill a track or a path for me that would be one that was worthwhile. I have no regrets 00:07:00having been a part of that either.  

HB: Where did you spend most of your childhood, would you say?

BF: Where as far as what city?

HB: Yeah.

BF: Most of it was in New York, Queens. In early years, it was in Queens. As I got a little bit older, more to high school, I was able to travel. None of my friends or I had a car so we would take the subway which is a big means of transportation in New York City and we would go to parties in all the boroughs and I would say we did quite a bit. And sometimes we would go out of town to the Penn Relays in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia and to some other events like that. But it was mostly in pretty much New York. We did travel to Florida 'cause my grandparents lived in West Palm Beach, so we did take drives down there from time to time.

HB: What was your favorite travel destination?

BF: At that time?

HB: Yeah.

BF: West Palm Beach was. My uncle was a scout executive there and he knew a lot of young people in my age bracket, so kind of when I went down there I had friends automatically that he introduced me to, and when I would go back to visit I would know some of the people there. So that was, I would say, one of my favorite places to go to.

HB: Could you just tell us a little bit more about your family and some of the values of the household you grew up in?

BF: Ok. My mother was, I considered her to be, sort of a socialite. She liked being in clubs, women's clubs that they had, and they would do things like debutante cotillions, things like that. As a seamstress, she also made dresses for many of the debutantes as well. And she would be busy with the club meetings 00:09:00and things like that. My father was a merchant seamen as I said. So he was not home as much because as merchant seamen they have to be away probably about maybe two or three weeks at a time because he was a first class steward. And they would be traveling to Europe and destinations that were, you know, took a little ways, a little time to get over there on the ship. So he was home on vacations, maybe home for a few weeks, but typically he was gone most of the time. So my mother raised me, and I pretty much knew that my father was rigid as a Bahamian father and he was strict, so I knew that when he came home that if I had anything that, let's say, that I was doing wrong that was obviously within parameters of, of being wrong, not terribly bad, but I knew I had to straighten up when he came home. I respected my father and respected my mother very much.

HB: Do you think that family dynamic was affected pretty greatly by his absence?

BF: It was. Because I had to go with, let's say, to different scout outings, different events I would have to go with my friends and with their father. It's not that he didn't want to be there but that was what he had to do to provide for his family. So I got used to it. I wished that he were there, but I, I did acclimate and adjust to it pretty well.

HB: Are there any other sort of memories that sort of stick out to you about your mother and your father growing up?

BF: They were a close--They had typical differences that families have, but nothing so major to say that 'I don't think that we can live together.' They were getting ready to celebrate their fiftieth wedding anniversary and my father passed away just before that, but they were together for a number of years and I 00:11:00certainly kind of tried to pattern a lot of things from, let's say, the marriage that my mother and father had for the marital situations that I got into.

HB: Did it feel unique at all to grow up in a single-child home?

BF: No, because as a single child, I don't know if you are, and I wouldn't even ask that question, but as a single child, cousins become like brothers and sisters. So I had some very close cousins that I considered as a brother or as a sister. So that's typically what happens with single children.

HB: Absolutely. So moving out from just your home life, if you could talk a little bit about your home community and the neighborhood that you grew up in.

BF: Okay. I grew up in a neighborhood, again it was in Queens. And the neighborhood I was in was considered to be, I would say, a lower-middle class 00:12:00neighborhood. We had--it was safe, but we did have one of the houses we had, there were some break-ins in the area but not that bad. It was a safe neighborhood. My father wasn't a believer of televisions when I was quite young, so I had to go to my neighbor's house--a Jewish family that lived two doors away from me--to watch TV. But it was a neighborhood that we always felt safe walking around and doing things in. And I would walk to school through grade school, and then obviously there were school buses needed to get to junior high school after that, and then high school after that I pretty much walked to as well.

HB: Did you know a lot of your neighbors?

BF: I did. Yeah, I do. Pretty much the neighbors were like the Jewish family I mentioned to you. The mother of four kids, all of which she adopted. Pearl, I 00:13:00remember her name through all these years. I called her Aunt Pearl and she was very close. My mother, when my mother was working, and my father was away on the ship, she would kind of watch. I would go over to the house and I would be over there with them until my mother came home. So we were very close. We had probably some other neighbors that we didn't know quite well, but we would know them well enough to speak to, etc. But the neighborhoods then were that you had somebody who was there to also look out for you. If you got in trouble, they would be assured of letting your parents know. So you had the kind of the overseer parents and I think that that's good. That's something that's missing quite a bit right now.

HB Were a lot of the kids that you grew up with in that neighborhood also in the Jack and Jill?

BF No. The kids that were in the Jack and Jill lived about maybe - one of my best friends who's a retired surgeon right now -- lived about maybe four blocks 00:14:00away from me. Four or five blocks away from me. So he was one that was in Jack and Jill. And then some others lived maybe about five or ten minutes away from me. So we were spread out. Some were all the way out in areas like Hempstead, further out in Long Island. So they were spread out pretty well, but we had the meetings at different homes at different times. Nobody that was a neighbor next door to me were, let's say, were involved in Jack and Jill with me.

HB: So you mentioned Jack and Jill, but building off of that, were there any other hobbies or any sort of daily routine activities that you were involved in?

BF: I played baseball. I played basketball. I love sports. I ran track in high school and one of the things, memories I had tied up with baseball was we lived relatively close, probably a bicycle ride away from where Jackie Robinson and 00:15:00Roy Campanella lived. And that's when they played for - this was probably well before -- it is well before your time, the Brooklyn Dodgers. And when the game was over and they would come home, we would ride to their house just to say hello to them, or just to congratulate them if they won, or just to kind of be there. And we had a chance to speak with his kids who were there waiting as well to see them. And we didn't go in the house but we just rode out there just to see them and all that. So those were among the fond memories. And that's a close tie that kind of helped me stay connected to baseball like I did. To this day, the most I'll play is softball right now but I loved baseball at that time.

HB: Did you play pretty regularly after high school?

BF: I never played baseball in school, but we had what we called "street pick-up games." So we played at a field that was right behind where I lived. And we 00:16:00would just kind of- some other kids from the neighborhood- sometimes the kids would come from the bad neighborhood, play with us, and they'd beat us. And then they'd take our baseball and leave. We just let it go because they were some of the individuals in the neighborhood who were, I guess, some of the gang members. But we did play baseball with them. It was fun, no real intimidation but you pretty much knew, I think, who you were kind of maybe going to challenge and not challenge. But it was all in, I would say, good sportsmanship, outside of taking what we may have brought to the game. That's where it kind of went a little beyond good sportsmanship.

HB: So moving from the neighborhoods to school, what are some of your early school-day memories?

BF: Going to the grade school I went to, I was there through the sixth grade, 00:17:00and it was within walking distance. I certainly met a lot of my friends that I still have there. As a matter of fact, I'm still in touch online with some of the friends, I'm not seeing, but we're still communicating online. Several are now deceased but the ones that are still living I communicate with sometimes. I don't get to see them. I have several that live in a place down, called Sarasota, Florida. My wife and I went down there the year that I retired and spent, I think about four months, and just rented a condo and stayed four months down there the year I retired. And I got to see a lot of my friends that have moved down there that I had not seen in many cases, since grade school or high school. It was a good school. It was mixed as far as African American, white, Hispanic, etc., but it was mostly a predominately white that were at the school. But it was a good school, and I do remember some of the teachers there very 00:18:00well. And one of my good friends and I were kind of the unique ones as far as languages. Everybody else there was taking Spanish, probably primarily Spanish, and some French. We decided to take German. And we were kind of, I think, two of the oddballs who did that, and it was - I don't regret having taken the German. I've never had the opportunity to use it conversationally, but we did certainly learn the language to some extent. So those are memories I have from the grade school days. I did go to a junior high school. Here they have middle schools. We had a junior high school that went from the seventh to the ninth grade. I had to take a school bus to that school.

Well, let me step back a minute. The school I had to go to initially because I lived just across the kind of zoned-out region where you didn't have a choice: you had to go to one junior high school or the other. One junior high school was 00:19:00a school that was in a relatively bad neighborhood. And I was just on the other side of the line that was marked that I had to go to that school. I went there for my first year, and I did survive it. It worked out well. And then we moved to where I was able to go to the other junior high school where most of my friends were going. So I did transition to that other junior high school and finish up there and then transition to the high school that I ended up going to and graduating from.

HB: What were some of the challenges that you might have experienced at the first junior high?

BF: At the first junior high? I would say probably just dealing with getting to know people who lived on the other side of town who may have, kind of, grown up a little bit differently and being able to at least get along with people that you did not grow up with or you didn't know that well. You kind of found that 00:20:00you were at another level as far as from the grade school there. That bridge between high school and grade school was one that they kind of looked for you to kind of be more of a self-starter. So that was a transition that I had to deal with to be able to do that and be more responsible with my studies. I was, I would call myself a mediocre student. English was my area that I was always very strong in. I was not that strong in math. Science was okay. Certain areas of science like biology was good, chemistry no. But I managed to kind of get by and do well on that.

HB: What was your favorite dimension of English? Writing or Literature?

BF: Certainly, one of the things I pride myself on right now is proofing. I am very critical when I start reading things and I see that people don't take the time to proof things, and they put it out there. So I would say looking at, 00:21:00grammar, looking at spelling, looking how they put sentences together, shorten sentences from what they were. I had to go the hard way and learn through kind of maybe writing very lengthy sentences until somebody at one of my first jobs told me that I need to write like I spoke. He sent me to a class that helped me do that better. So, whenever I sit down to put anything together like PowerPoints for presentations, I sit down and start with long, and then I start cutting it down to something as - when I put myself in the audience of a PowerPoint and think in terms of what I think I feel is going to hold my attention, what's going to turn me off. And I think it's that that turns me off causes me to do something to kind of keep it very brief and to the point on the slide, and talk to it, elaborate on it a little more on it verbally. So that 00:22:00kind of got me started, that track of the areas of English that I liked.

HB: Did you enjoy English quite a bit in high school as well as--?

BF: I did. Yes. Very much.

HB: What did you notice, maybe shifting in the environment of junior high when you shifted from the first school to the second junior high school?

BF: I was going to the school that had more, a better mix of, let's say, whites. The other school I went to had very few whites. It was predominately black. When I went over to the other school, which I spent two years at, it was a mix. I would say the percentages of that, it was probably sixty or so, sixty-two percent white, and maybe say about fifteen percent black, and you had a smaller 00:23:00percentage of Hispanic etc. So that was a key difference of going from one to the other.

HB: Did you notice that affecting the sort of atmosphere of the school at all?

BF: It did, because, we didn't have serious problems at the junior high school. I didn't really see it. One of the things that I did gain out of that experience was certainly getting to know myself better and people who looked like me, to get to know them better as to how we interact with other people that didn't look like us. That was somewhat of a training ground. I got that at home, so it wasn't like that was brand new to me. My parents also helped to learn how to deal with all people versus saying "this group is not good. This group is good." They did not do that. So I would say that school experience further fostered 00:24:00that type of response of how I dealt with it. It wasn't 'til I got to high school that I got, not involved with, but I knew that they had race riots at the high school that I went to and that was something that really bothered me. We were a smaller percentage there. But I just never really, I was around it, but never got into it. So, nobody attacked me, and I didn't attack anybody, but it was there. Those are memories that I had and that was early exposure to some of the things that we are still dealing with at another level right now.

HB: Do you have any specific stories or memories you wouldn't mind sharing about, sort of, the learning process you were talking about?

BF: The learning process, you would say, of dealing with different races?

HB: Yeah.

BF:Yeah, I have quite a few, but again I'll keep it down to maybe one good one. 00:25:00At the high school that I went to, I ran track. The track coach there was also my guidance counselor. At one point along the way when I was getting close to my senior year, the advice that he gave, and my mother ended up coming to school, because he said that I was not college material. I should do something to work with my hands, don't bother with college. And my mother was very disturbed so she came and had a conversation with him. It wasn't until maybe a few years after that, that there were other black students after that, that I know, many that I know to this day, that were told the same thing. So that was clearly, as far as I could see it, clear bias there. It's not like that he was even kind of encouraging us to do something. It had no sound basis to say that we shouldn't 00:26:00go to college. Because I did end up going to college and I did finish up. The other individuals did the same thing. But if we had just listened to him, and our parents didn't realy respond and step up then, it could have very well been that we were just castigated(?) to something that wasn't really a fair, reasonable way to go.

HB: Are you still fairly connected to a number of your family members today?

BF: Oh, yeah. Definitely. The ones that are still living. Several are not here, but I'm very well connected. We have a lot of family in Nassau. I just lost a very close family member in my family in Nassau on my father's side. And the husband had passed away several years ago. He was like a brother to my father. He was a cousin but he was very close to my father. And he always, whenever we went to Nassau, we always had a place and they kind of looked out for family. 00:27:00They valued family. They still value family. He has, they have, cause the wife just passed away after having Alzheimers for quite some time. The daughter and two sons are still in Nassau. They have families and I'm very close to them. One of my cousin's sons is living in Florida now, and he was a key player to us. We tried to get to the funeral. My wife is retired from United Airlines, and we got stuck in New Jersey. And the plane was in bad repair and we missed the funeral so we ended up coming back home. And she fully understood. But we tried. We got there early enough to be there for the service and we couldn't get there and I felt very badly about it. I sent her a very dear note as to, I think, the value of family and what her mother and father meant to me and my family as well. And we talk a lot, so it's not like she felt-- She wanted me there but she 00:28:00understood that with circumstances with flying like that, sometimes, it doesn't work out.

HB: Shifting gears just a little bit, and moving just past high school, what do you remember most about your college years?

BF: I went to Howard University in Washington D.C. which is one of the historically black colleges and universities. And I went down there with certainly very good intentions. My father was paying for my education, but there was a caveat which he had. He said that if you go down there and you do poorly, you mess up, in his words, that you're going to end up paying for school yourself. Well, I was there three years and I did mess up. I just didn't, I was, the social life kind of was more of my interest than the academics. And so I 00:29:00left there after three years of college, and came back home. Worked for a while then went to the service and that's when, I got to sa,y I kind of really grew up in the four years I was in the Air Force. I'm a Vietnam veteran, so I did spend time during my time in the military there. My father again, I was saying, he was paying for it, so I was very blessed that I did not have any student loans because he had paid for the three years. And then when I came back from the military, I had the military help but I also had the company that I worked for that had tuition assistance programs. So all I had to do was pay for it up front. Since I was working I could do that and then at the end of semester if I got a C grade, or better, they would reimburse me for the class. So I was very fortunate that I did not have to deal with any student loans whatsoever for 00:30:00school. So that, that worked out well.

HB: Did you return to the same school?

BF: No. I went to a school up in New Jersey called Fairleigh Dickinson University. It's a, they got three key campuses up there and I went to one up there in Teaneck, New Jersey. And I was, it was a little bit different. As a student at Howard, I was a full time student, so obviously living in the dormitories there. I had mentioned to Bruce [Mills] that I had lived next door to Stokely Carmichael my freshman year there and knew Stokely quite well. We were freshman together and so saw a lot of things evolve with him there, etc. But I, I really enjoyed the years there, but when I went to Fairleigh Dickinson, it was a lot different because I was raising a family, I was working, and going to school. So if somebody asked me who sat next to me in a classroom, I have no idea because it was strictly after work going there, getting what had to get done to pursue the degree that I have, a Bachelors in Business Management. And I 00:31:00don't know who was in that class with me because it was after a long day at work and I would just do what I had to do -- do my homework, finished up, and that was it. So certainly, quite different as far as the environment, and the mindset as well.

HB: Do you have any stories from your friendship with Stanley--

BF: Stokely--

H: Stokely?

B: Stokely Carmichael? Yeah. Oh, I have several, but he talked my roommate and I, who my roommates now are deceased. He talked us into going on Freedom Rides into Baltimore. And that was, I knew they were doing it for quite some time there and we did it, but I learned something else about myself: I did not have the resiliency to do as typically the movement called for, and that's to turn the other cheek. I didn't have that resiliency. And it just didn't work for me. So I thought, rather than going down there, somebody spit on me, or somebody 00:32:00slap me, I was going to respond and that doesn't help the movement. So I felt it was better for me to kinda just pull back and try to take other means of kind of working with the movement versus, I think, directly involved in that that I felt I wasn't cut out for. That's part of my thing being raised in New York as well.

HB: Would you mind expanding at all on the experience of the Freedom Rides?

BF: Painful. That we, we went over on a bus. Some people went in cars. But we went over into Baltimore on a bus and once we got there, it was very well organized that we did not go there to, to do any harm or damage. All we were doing was just going there to find, just find a way that we could be equally valued and just that we were just asking to, let's say, give us the same 00:33:00treatment that you give everybody else. Nothing less, nothing more. And that's what I remember very well, that we did that, and there was a lot of hate there at the time. There is still some of that that exists in a different form or manner. Now, it manifests itself a little bit differently. But it was, it was straight, straight out forward. It was like 'we don't want you here' and tell you rather than finessing it and saying that kinda 'sure we want you here,' and really it's not meant to be that. But it was, it was not easy, it was pretty, you know, pretty tough to keep on that path or that track that was necessary for the movement to be effective.

HB: So after realizing that maybe you didn't feel most comfortable in that position, how did you find yourself a part of the movement after that?

B:  Kind of, my roommate and I, we kind of pulled out and we kind of dedicated 00:34:00ourselves more to school. Matter of fact, I took a job at a pharmacy and he took a job at a supermarket. And we just felt like-- 'cause we moved off [campus] the last year, the third year there, 'cause my roommate did finish up. My third year there, was for the second year I guess it was, and we decided to move off campus. We got an apartment and we decided that, although we were getting some money from our respective families, that we felt that there was a need to go ahead and do a - kind of self-provide for ourselves so we took a job at two different places there. So we dedicated ourselves to working, going to school, working, going to school, etc. So that's how we occupied our time. But keeping involved, I guess, in the back, kind of in the background, on, let's say discussions about what was going on in the country as well because they had a lot of key speakers that came to Howard University at that time. Including 00:35:00Malcolm X who came at that time as well to our campus to talk.

HB Were you present at his speech?

BF: I believe I was, yeah. Matter of fact, I think there was a debate between Malcolm X and Dr. King which was a very interesting debate and I was more inclined towards Dr. King's path than I was at Malcolm X's. But then later on in life it was good to see that they were pretty much, not really I would say aligned, but they felt that they were looking for the same result. And they kind of worked more collaboratively than they had in the past.

HB: Do you remember anything specific about that debate?

BF: Yeah, that I remember that Dr. King was kind of talking about, about how we can kind of love all of our brothers no matter what their color was. And Malcolm X talking about the fact that there's no love that we should have for people 00:36:00that don't look like us. And that was a very hardcore approach towards the whole issue of racism. We just, we kind of just be amongst ourselves as a group, the black Muslims, that's what the movement was about. It was not inclusive, it was exclusive. And I, and I, there were certain things that came out of that that made sense, but there were other things that I didn't that I didn't quite agree with as well.

HB:  What was the...if you don't mind continuing to talk about this a little bit, was the atmosphere like on campus within the student body?

BF: The atmosphere was - it's a huge campus, 'cause that Howard is the largest of all of the historically black colleges and universities. You have a lot of fraternities. You've got a lot of sororities, and you'd find that on Fridays that they, the sororities and fraternities would have certain areas like a tree or something like that, there would be the singing on campus. Social life was 00:37:00great, they had teams there. So we had a life that, you know, we certainly were involved in a lot of things going on in the country, but we also had a life there that we enjoyed very much. We had great professors there at the time. I know my roommate took a professor there who is now deceased, but he wrote several books about the black movement years ago. I can't think of his name right off hand, but he was a phenomenal professor. My roommate and I talked about him a lot. I sat in on some of the classes with him on that. So they had a lot of name professors, big name professors, who went on to do other things that were there. Also had a family tie there. My cousin taught there and she was married to, this had nothing to do with my coming there, but she was married to the president of Howard University's son. And so she was there as kind of - as I 00:38:00told you cousins were like family, like brothers and sisters. She was my big sister and she taught music there. She was from West Palm Beach, but she taught music at Howard. So I had family there that I could spend time with when I wanted to get off campus, go out there for a meal away from the kind of the campus-type meals. It was a nice outlet.

HB: Did English continue to be a big focus in your college years?

BF: English was, but more so a lot of history. Black history 'cause one of the things I did not get in high school - I got very little, very, very little about black history so I did not know or learn as much about black history until I got to Howard University. I never knew that we had black senators and black representatives. They never talked about that in the high school that I went with. But it wasn't until I went to Howard that I learned a lot more as far as going back to, a lot more about the whole slave movement, what emanated out of 00:39:00that, things like that and individuals who, in spite of how difficult the times were, still rose above, let's say, a lot of that, still had challenges, but they did rise above that. So a lot that history was something I valued very greatly. And a lot of that has been very key to a lot of things I've been doing over the years in the community, involvements I've had, etc.

HB: Are there any other just, like really important or memorable experiences that happened during your college years? I'm sure there were many.

BF: Oh, many, many.

HB: That you'd like to share?

BF: Many, yeah, I think back to living off campus when my roommate and I went looking for an apartment, racism was still very big and we were told by many 00:40:00places--We would look in the ads to see if somebody had an apartment that was relatively accessible to Howard University. And we would go to the homes, knock on the door, and if they were white, they would tell us they're not renting to blacks. So we had to deal with that until we really--Matter of fact, for a while we lived with a, one of our friends who was from Washington D.C. who had an aunt that had like a basement apartment and we stayed there just until we were able to find our own apartment. So we had to do that because of what we were subjected to as far as, I think, the biases where they would not, they were not going to rent to people of color. So that was an experience. It was not a very comforting experience obviously, but we, again, we survived all of that.

HB: When you mentioned earlier that you left after three years to serve, would you mind talking about that?

BF: I left after three years because my GPA was lousy and I had to stay out a semester and then possibly come back the following semester. While I was out, I did go back to New York and I had a job there. And I was up there against the draft and I decided I did not want to go into the Army, so I went ahead and enlisted in the Air Force. And I spent four years in the Air Force. Those were some very interesting years because at least two of those years were spent in Mississippi.  And, as I talk about things, that was kind of the complete extreme end of the spectrum from what I'd grown up with. And I was down there before the Civil Rights Bill was passed and I was down there during the time that the Civil Rights Bill passed. 1964. So I saw a lot of stuff down there as 00:42:00far as the separate bathrooms, separate drinking fountains, and the signs were clearly there, and the word "colored" was used. And you also had restaurants that served the military base that I was at who told us that we could not come to the front to be served. We had to go around back to get our food and to take it out and so, we had to deal with that. And a friend of mine from Washington D.C. who I have not seen since I left the service, soon as the Bill was passed, went back to that restaurant, challenged it. They tried to treat us the same way. We came back and told them at the base. They made that restaurant off-limits to any of the military, and that's what they depended upon for their revenue. So they kind of closed them off and they had to change their practices whether they liked it or not if they wanted to get the revenue from the military. So we went back there after they decided they were going to open their 00:43:00doors up and tested it. They were not happy campers, but they had no choice. So I kind of felt very good. That's when I guess I got the sense of kind of engaging in things. And if I can just go back a little bit to basic training. This was before [inaudible] I think. No, it was a [inaudible], it was in Mississippi. There was a young fellow, cause I was, having been in college for three years, I was a little bit older, maybe two or three years older than many of those who were coming in. There was one individual who was from some small town in the South, and he used a very derogatory term as he referred to me. And at that time I was young and I, I didn't question things. I didn't try to reason with people. I just grabbed him, slammed him up against a wall, and told him, "Don't you ever do that to me again." And I just felt very good about it at the time. But he never, he could never make eye contact with me after that. He got the message and that's just the way I felt at the time.  And I look at where I 00:44:00am in life right now and I prefer to use this [pointing to his brain] rather than hands or anything like that, to try to discuss and deal with situations. But that's kind of, that's a maturing process that, that happens with some, not with all. But I feel like I'd rather sit down and discuss things. And I don't feel at all uncomfortable discussing things that are real issues that are right there. I can discuss them very openly. I think it needs to be discussed by a lot more very openly and that would help to get to resolutions. If you can't do that, then you can't really, if you can't discuss it, how you gonna get to correcting it?

H: Are there any more stories that come to mind right now that you wouldn't mind sharing about your time in the Air Force?

B: Well I, I felt like I was, of course I had to go through all of the requirements to be in basic training. You gotta kind of just...I went there with a moustache and that, all that had to go. Had to shave...I had more hair at that 00:45:00time, had to shave the little bit that I had off then. And everybody looks alike somewhat, but they...One of the things I learned, again, another lesson in life is that in the military, they push you to the edge. Just like, just being right to the edge of, of a hole that you can either fall in, if you allow yourself to fall in, or that you brace yourself enough that you won't. Because they typically are not going to put their hands on you, but they are going to yell at you and get in your face. And I learned how to deal with that. I did see some younger people who couldn't take that and they were put out of the service. Obviously that reflects on their track record as far as or their type of discharge that they have. And this impacts people going to get jobs when they talk about 'were you in the military? What type of discharge did you have?' etc. And if you leave with a bad discharge, and you lie about it, when they do a background check, they can always find that out. So I said, I dealt with a lot, 00:46:00I went through the four years there and I grew up in the service. I came into my own. And having been overseas quite a bit, Japan, Philippines, Vietnam, I spent a lot of time and I learned a lot about different cultures over there as well and that kind of helped me a lot in my own life as well.

H: What were the race relations like within the groups of people that you worked with in the Air Force?

B: That I worked with in the Air Force?

H: Yeah.

B: I would say, they got, they got a lot better 'cause one of the things I kind of, I think get them, and I kind of came to my own I was able to pretty much, I started getting to the stage, I was too young, started getting to the phase of my life where I could kind of if I didn't like what was said to me I could say something to them and I didn't mind doing that. I didn't have the fear, of you know, what, what might happen to me at that time. So it helped me to, I think, 00:47:00to deal with situations a lot better, and I, kind of in a sense, demanded respect and I got it. And they got to know me. And I kind of found that helped me when I got my first job and my second job that I got out of the service 'cause first, those first two jobs that I had, I was the first black that they had. They'd never had Hispanics in the jobs, these were sales jobs, and they never had women. So I was the first of, let's say, which constituted a difference that what was typically there.  And when I came into, let's say, regional or national sales meetings, of course, everybody's heads turned and I even heard the comment 'well where'd he come from?' But I had a certain amount of, again, self-esteem that I talked about earlier that helped me to deal with that. I didn't let that rattle me. I felt that what I had to do was, if I were brought in, and certainly Affirmative Action was a big thing at that time, so part of that had to do with at least giving me a chance to get in. And then once I got in, of course, I had to deliver because I did not want to kind of lay back 00:48:00on Affirmative Action just to think in terms 'well, I'm in now and I've gotta be here. No, I've got to deliver.' And that's what I focused on, delivering to do what I had to do to be effective in sales, to obviously meet and exceed any of the goals or quotas that we had, and also to take on additional responsibilities because I did take on responsibility and one of my jobs of a field sales trainer. And that's when they had new sales people coming in. I had my territory to certainly have responsibility for, but I would take them with me into my territory. And then they would pretty much watch what I did. But often times I would go into, let's say maybe a new client because the individual may have been white and when I came in with them, they would turn to the white first thinking that that was the person who was bringing me in. And again, through what I think I had learned over the years that helped me to deal with that because I, I kind 00:49:00of just you know, then they would look at them I think in terms of saying 'I'm the trainee and they're the trainer." And I would just let them know 'Well, he is coming in with me right now, just to let you know.' And the way I dealt with it, packaging is what I would call that. Just I packaged things a lot differently. But I would get the message across without offending. At least, I tried to. Sometimes, some people still get offended, but I didn't let that bother me.

H: What was the, what sort of lead you to decide to get a business-related degree?

B: That I felt that since I was going the route of sales and I was looking at some point initially to be in kind of maybe sales training, I felt that that would be a pretty good degree. I didn't really, I wasn't looking to get into the marketing per say, but more the sales training. And I didn't get into any 00:50:00behavioral classes at that time 'cause that's something that's obviously, I think, been moving beyond the years that I was kind of there, that that's more of a requirement now. But the people skills was something to help me out quite a bit. Because while I was in sales in one of the companies at which I was the first person of color, and before they actually hired females. They did hire some females that had a whole different set of problems when the guys would sit down to talk sports and all that, they had to change that and think in terms of thinking and valuing everyone that was there. But I was able to be considered for a human resources position after I was there for five years in sales with them. Well four years cause five years is like the kind of cause that's almost like a kiss of death. Once you get there five years in sales like that, and you're not going anywhere, then you kind of just ride on out in sales. So it's about four years and I got a chance to interview for a human resources position I thought 'lemme just, if I got it, I would transition here to learn the 00:51:00bureaucracy cause I was dealing out in the field. I was not inside with management 'cause you're pretty much, you have a manager who comes and spends time with you, but you have the responsibility to plan out your day. But when you're inside and bureaucracy you've got to be there for meetings and all that. So when I went inside, I did get the position and I went inside, I felt, lemme just do this for a few years and then go back to sales. But I found that I liked human resources so very much that that's where I stayed in and that's where I did my whole career for certainly, probably over 30 years in human resources with several different companies. So it came together.

H: What company did you start with?

B: The first company that I started with in sales was probably a company you never heard of. The name of the company formally was Sperry and Hutchinson. But they had what they called S&H Green Stamps. These were some stamps that you found at certain stores, supermarkets, gas stations, would purchase them, and 00:52:00when you purchase a product or a service they would give you so many stamps. These green stamps, we would sell them. And after you get the books filled up, they had redemption centers. And you take these stamps to the redemption centers and it was like a store. And you go on in and rather than spending money, you're spending stamps to get these gifts because you have earned them as...by spending your money somewhere. I sold those for about a year. And then after that year, the fellows who kind of got me connected with both of these jobs from an organization called the Urban League. It was up in Harlem, New York. Yeah, he worked with veterans who were coming out of service. He called me and said the stamp business is going to kind of go down the tubes and I have an opportunity in a healthcare related type sales which is very non-cyclical. And it was a good 00:53:00move 'cause I got into that company which never again, same situation, never had people of color, females, etc. And I was a first of a kind of salesperson to come into that company. Davis and Geck was the name of that company. Sold sutures, so now I was going into hospitals and I was selling sutures to hospitals. Not that I was carrying--I would carry demos and that's when I also started doing presentations to sizable groups that may go up to 50 or more. And they were surgeons, OBGYN surgeons, operating room, emergency room, professional nurses who ran those operations to just talk about the product, etc. that they would think in terms of ordering it. So that was a great opportunity for me to be able to do that. But that's the company I was with that I made a transition from sales to human resources. The fellow--who is there is the Director of Diversity for that division--went to the corporate office, American Cyanamid was 00:54:00the name of the company that Davis and Geck was a part of. And he had just given my name to somebody to consider as they were interviewing people and one thing lead to another and that's when I got my transition. Right place at the right time. It worked out.

H: Were you married at this point?

B: Yes, to my first wife. I am in my second marriage now, but I was married to my first wife with whom I had my two sons with. And I'm remarried now. I've been married almost 32 years now with my present wife.

H: When did you move up to Kalamazoo?

B: Oh 19...No, not 19, it was 20. I came, I've been here for about 10, so 10 years so it's probably early 2000 because I moved to Chicago in '85 and spent several years there. But I came to Kalamazoo, because I was recruited by 00:55:00Kellogg. And I was working with Target at the time, Target Stores. And my former manager from Motorola, who I am still very much in touch with, had told me that there is a position in Kalamazoo. She said, "I don't know if Kalamazoo is a place that you've ever thought of going to." But I said I'd look at the opportunity and I'd deal with the geography later. And that's exactly what I did and it worked out. I only spent three years there 'cause they hired me at the age of 63, which typically a lot of companies don't want to be bothered with individuals 55 or beyond. So, and they get total package, relocation, everything else. They bought my place back in downtown Chicago and I came here and everything worked out well. And my wife loves it here. And so do I, this is home. That's why I ended up here.

H: In our last few minutes, is there anything that you want to elaborate on or add too?

B: No I just, I'm very much involved in several different things here. My wife 00:56:00and I both volunteer at Borgess. She, a matter of fact, she volunteers in something that she has only done for two days not, but she's been volunteering in critical care. But they have some babies there that need special attention. They're just a few weeks old. They were born to people with addictions and they cry a lot, so they've ask volunteers just to come in to be rockers, baby rockers. So she went in and did it yesterday and it just moved her so much that she went back today and spent another two hours after she finished volunteering in critical care. And she did that again today. And she had a set of twins, same ones she had yesterday that she is working with. So it's very moving for her 'cause our kids obviously are grown now and it's been a long time since we've rocked any babies. She has, my step-children, two, a son and daughter, and I have two sons. And they're all over the place and now nobody's here and the 00:57:00closest one is Chicago. Florida and Georgia otherwise.

H: How old are they?

B: My stepdaughter is, Robin is 49. My stepson is 47. My son is 45 - my older son. My younger son is 43. My younger son is a tattoo artist and has a tattoo business. That's what he does for a living and he's got a daughter who is in college and has a son and a little daughter who are coming along. But he's been able to provide for the family through tattooing. He's done quite well in that.

H: Well, thank you so much for coming out here, and meeting with us tonight, and we look forward to a second interview so we can build of off all of this.  

B: I look forward to it. Excellent. Ok. Thank you.