Byron Foster Interview 2

Hannah Bogard: My name is Hannah Bogard. This is the second part of my interview with Mr. Byron Foster, as part of a collaboration between Kalamazoo College and the Southwest Michigan Black Heritage Society. So, thank you so much again for taking the time to come and talk with us.

Byron Foster: Okay, glad to be here.

HB: Today if it's alright with you we wanted to go back to your time at Howard for a little while. Starting with what year did you begin your education there?

BF: At Howard? 1960.

HB: And was it your choice to go to Howard?

BF: It was my choice to go to Howard, but I had--I think I may have talked earlier about the fact that having no brothers or sisters, cousins became like brothers and sisters. Well, I had a cousin who had been at Howard for about two years and he was very influential with my parents. So he kind of helped me to be 00:01:00able to get them to let me go. However, my mother supported, my father did not. He wanted me to go to school in New York, but my mother was able to convince him to let me go. But he must have known something that I didn't because when I went down there I didn't really do as well as I could've because I got caught up in the social life of Washington DC.

HB: Why were you drawn to Howard in particular?

BF: I wanted to go to a historically black college and the fact that the high school that I went to did not really get into, got very little, let's say, into the black history at all. And I felt this would round off my experiences so that I could learn more about black history being at a historically black college, and one that had such a rich history. And I'll also mention another thing, too. 00:02:00There was a cousin of mine who went there. She was a music teacher. She also was a factor and her being married to the president's son. That was a plus. She also said that as long as I'm down there she would kind of keep an eye on me and look out for me, etcetera. So those were some things that were like built-in support systems for me. So those were factors that kind of helped that.

HB: Would you mind talking a little bit more about the student body response at Howard to speakers such as Dr. King and Malcolm X?

BF: Generally, the student body response was that they were very concerned because they were, they, I should say, we were very into the throes of a lot of the issues that were going on at that time in the country. And to have an individual who has been so much out in the front, so to put it, as a leader, a 00:03:00very dedicated and committed leader, that it was just a very good feeling, a phenomenal feeling to be able to have him come and speak to us. It was good feelings. We did have some students there who were a little more radical. It wasn't, let's say, a large part of the student body. They had issues with him coming there because they were more supportive of a more radical approach. But they also, they didn't cause any major issues on the campus as such.

HB: And you were talking a few minutes ago about Bayard Rustin and James Baldwin also as characters at Howard while you were there. Could you talk a little bit more about that?

BF: Well, they had a speaker series that they put on for the students, but also for the community. And Howard was a pretty big draw for individuals who were kind of involved in talking to people, to kind of share their opinions. And the 00:04:00other thing was that they did give all: they gave time and also they were open to hearing all sides. As far as I think those who moved, let's say in passive resistance, those who had a more radical approach, so they kind of gave, I would say, fair equal time to all the speakers so we could hear all sides of the issues which kind of, I think, helped broaden our perspectives as well. So, to have both of them come out there on the campus at different times to speak kind of, certainly broadened our horizons quite a bit.

HB: How involved was the community outside of Howard with speakers like that who were on campus?

BF: Generally speaking, they were very involved with the speakers there. Many of them. They did have, Howard, if you don't know that Howard is in the kind of the 00:05:00community so to put it, much as like Morehouse, Atlanta U, they sit in a community that is a little bit hostile towards college students. So it was not an outsider-friendly community, so you had to be careful as to where you went out there because there were some gangs and people out there who really did not, they really had no intentions of going to college and in several cases, it could have been unsafe to, you know, to go wandering into areas that may not have been as friendly. But generally speaking they had a huge community that spread out over a wide area of Washington DC that people were very supportive and felt that it was good that they could be a part of that. So that kind of somewhat overshadowed, I think, the immediate community that Howard was sitting in.

HB: So, in our first interview you also mentioned finding yourself more in agreement with Dr. King's mentality rather than Malcolm X's.

BF: Yes.

HB: Would you mind expanding on that?

BF: Ok, I felt that Dr. King had an approach that was, just seemed to, at that time, and I was still much younger, but I thought that I kind of--again, it helped that I wrote a paper about Mahatma Gandhi and I did a lot of research on that research paper, I put together for him. That gave me a much better understanding about Dr. King because much of what Dr. King did, the following, or who he followed, I think certainly the concepts and ideas he followed, were along the lines of what Mahatma Gandhi had done: the whole passive resistance thing. And that just kind of, in a sense, I could identify with that more so 00:07:00than a confrontational approach to get a point across. Having, I think, grown up with individuals who were both people of color, that look like me, and also having grown up with a lot of whites, that I felt that, I didn't feel that confrontation was the best approach. I always had a sense that it was good to be able to collaborate together, so that's why I tended to be more inclined towards Dr. King.

HB: And how has that same thinking and point of view in alignment with Dr. King continued to be a part of your life and a part of your thinking since you've left Howard?

BF: It continued, although I went through some times because of some things that I had, you know, had been through, but a lot of times I would kind of recall some of the things that he stood for, that he represented. Such as in the 00:08:00service, when I was there, and obviously there is certainly racism in the service. After I got out of the service, getting into the jobs, I had mentioned that two of the jobs, the first two jobs, that I had out of the service I was the first person of color there so just kind of leaning back on his teachings helped me to kind of get through. And it also helped build this sense of self-esteem which I talked about in our last meeting, and it was through those things that helped me to survive because I felt that, if I had taken an approach that was more radical, it could have been one of confrontation which obviously I would not have won out on, I would have lost out on because I would have been the new kid on the block so to put it and, of course, being out there alone, all fingers would point to me rather than to the majority. So I felt that it was 00:09:00better ro try to collaborate and see I could get along. But I still had a value system which I continue to have, that I held onto very much. There are certain things that I would tolerate and accept and certain things I would not accept. It's just how I dealt with it that I think that caused me to recall what it was, the teachings of Dr. King and his followers that helped me get through it all.

HB: You also mentioned that after going to some of the Freedom Rides with Stokely Carmichael that you got involved with the Civil Rights Movement in sort of a different capacity?

BF: Yes.

HB: Could you talk a little bit more about that?

BF: The capacity was that my roommate and I were very close. I mentioned that he's deceased now, but he and I were very close. As a matter of fact, we met when we were both in different dormitories because another friend of mine had gone to another school that he went to in Philadelphia and they met and he came 00:10:00over to Howard and that's how I met him through a friend I grew up with who was at Howard also the same time I was there. So we became pretty close. As a matter of fact, our third year we decided to move off campus. He was one of my roommates and we brought in two others to be able to afford the apartment that we had. But we just had that fear, especially also since we were looking at places to live in Washington DC, we were confronted with exactly what the entire movement was representing. Why should we not be able to have the same right as anybody else to be able to rent a place for, while we're going to school? And there was just, there was no qualms and no questions, let's say, about being, about what supposed was the right thing to do. We were just told that we're not accepting anybody who's a different color. They didn't say it like that; they used different terms, but we're not accepting anybody that looks like you in our 00:11:00apartment so we're not renting to you. That kind of helped to push me and to motivate me to want to help and to get engaged a little more. And, as I said, I really did engage. We found out what we were made of. What we could tolerate, what we could not tolerate, and that's why I think after going on a few, we just didn't have what it would take, what was required to kind of turn the other cheek and be a bigger person, so to put it, because that's what it really takes to do that. But we didn't want to, I think, forgo or sacrifice anything in what was trying to be done, to do something that we felt was just on a matter of principle so we, again, we learned, we were growing. We learned a lot more about ourselves through that experience.

HB: Did being a Howard student have any impact on how you were received in the wider community of Washington DC?

BF: No, because Washington DC was always, they call it Chocolate City. Have you 00:12:00ever heard that before? You've never heard that before? Washington DC was one of the areas that they called a chocolate city, because you have a large number of blacks in Washington DC. And one of the things that drew a lot of blacks to Washington DC were government jobs. And then, of course, you had the huge college there, Howard University, and so there were just a lot of blacks there. And the whites typically were out in the suburbs and that was kind of touching upon Maryland and touching upon Virginia and things like that, but in the inner city it was predominantly black in those areas. So it was, you know again, it was an eye opener for me to be able to be a part of that type of environment. But I also had to factor into the equation what it was going to be like after I was graduated from school as far as my getting a job with a corporation. I was 00:13:00not looking. I did not have what it took, or at least my mindset was not to say, start up my own business. It just wasn't that popular at that time, although some did successfully. But I knew I was going to be working in a world that was predominantly white and that I would have to find some way to adapt and adjust, still holding onto my value system. So that was like, again, it was an eye opener for me but it helped to develop some skills in me and I had to hit some rough spots along the way, but over the years it kind of worked out for me.

HB: Before we move on from Howard, are there any more stories that come to mind that you would like to share from those three years of your life?

BF: I think about my roommates somewhat. One of them who is now living in Panama. heand I, again, went through grade school together and when we got ready 00:14:00to go to high school--our mothers were very, very close. My father, as I said, was a merchant seaman so he was not as involved in a lot of these social organizations that the mothers were involved in--so my mother and his mother were very close and they determined that we probably would not able to survive in the same high school. So I went to the public high school and his parents sent him to a private high school in Manhattan and he went on to go to med school and he was an orthopedic surgeon and he is now retired. He's probably about six months older than me, but retired as that. But I think about again, our coming from the beginning, the roots that we did, the same general neighborhood. He was not my next door neighbor, but he lived about maybe three or four blocks away from me. But just some of the things that we did, coming up 00:15:00through organizations. I mentioned Jack and Jill to you before, and I mentioned the Cub Scouts, the Boy Scouts. We went through all of that together. We even went to a camp together that our parents found for us to go to, so we did so much together and I think that was, those are the type of friends that you grow to have that you don't have to talk to each other every day but the friendship evolves; it's there. We went to Panama about two years ago, maybe a year and half ago, and that's where he's living now. And we got together. We got to see him at least twice while we were over there. And again it's a friendship that's a solid friendship and which means other every day, but when we get together we still had that strong friendship that we had. No matter what he went on to do in life, no matter what I went on to do in life, we still had a solid bond. And that meant a lot. So that's another thing that kind of emanated before but still further developed at Howard as well.

HB: So moving on from your time at Howard to talk a little bit more about your time in the Air Force, if you don't mind.

BF: Ok. Well, I decided to, I didn't finish up Howard in three years. I was there through my sophomore, my junior year, and my grades were not that good, so I talked to my parents and we both agreed that I should come back home and kind of think through, you know, what I wanted to do and if I wanted to go back to school, and my father did say, he was rather rigid, and probably not a bad thing. He said to me before I went away, he said, "If you don't do well then you're gonna end up paying for school yourself." He was paying for school for me. So I didn't do well, and he was very serious about that so I came back home, worked for a while and then decided that I wanted to go into the Air Force. And I got to say, that was a tough experience, but it was a good experience for me. 00:17:00I was in for four years and after that I decided not to go on. So I went and enlisted and I ended up in places like, of course starting in Texas, went from Texas to Virginia, from Virginia over to the Philippines. No, I'm sorry. From Texas to Biloxi, Mississippi. I had never been to Mississippi in my life. So I went to Biloxi, Mississippi and from there to Virginia, Virginia to the Philippines, and then during the time I was in the Philippines I was in Vietnam. Just 85 days. And then from there, the surprise or the shock was that I was reassigned my last year, to Biloxi, Mississippi. So I went and dealt with it but I made it a good year but I knew I was gonna get out, so I spent my last year in Mississippi before I got my honorable discharge. And came back home and started. 00:18:00Iwent back to school. I was working and raising a family and did finish up school at Fairleigh Dickenson University in New Jersey, and I was working while I was doing that so it was kind of a different perspective of life when you start thinking in terms of that fact that here I was paying for--Well, it was paid for by the company, but still I had to pay out of pocket but then I was reimbursed if I got the grades. But I had to take school more seriously because that was going to be the means to my being able to move up or to move out into another company. Without the credentials I could probably move up so far, hit that ceiling, and then going to another company a lot of times they're going to be looking for credentials. I wouldn't have had them, so by doing that, that was a very good idea that helped me make the transition that I made to the several companies that I worked for.

HB: You talked a little bit about last time about some of the cultural learning that took place for you while you were serving abroad. Do you have any specific 00:19:00stories about that?

BF: I have a few, but I'll give you one that I can think of very much in the Philippines. My friend and I, a fellow who I have not seen since I left the service, he's from Ohio. He and I would go rent bikes and go out to areas of the Philippines where we were getting away from the base. This was up in the Southern Phillipines around Sabo City. And we would go out to places where we could go somewhere near the water and do snorkeling which we loved to do, so we would do that. But one of the things that we saw, we went into some of these villages that had never really seen blacks before, although a lot of the individuals that we saw in some of these villages that had the same complexion as me, but yet, what they had seen is probably some people from the Navy who were white and they would say derogatory things about blacks. So these kids, 00:20:00when they saw us did not know what they were saying, but they would say derogatory things to us not really knowing what it was they were saying. And where they got it from, they got it from others who kind of spread thebad news, so to put it, and not necessarily true. But kind of again, we dealt with that because we were in their culture and we had to value their culture, but we would also take the time to let them know that these were not the right things to say to anybody. And we did it tactfully, but we still had our fun as far as the snorkeling and all of that. So again, these were other experiences that we had and helped us, to kind of, to find out more about ourselves and also perceptions of us that others had.

HB: What has your experience been like as an African American Vietnam veteran 00:21:00back in the U.S.?

BF: The very first experience I had, I won't say just because I am African American, is the experience of the lack of appreciation for having served in the service no matter how long. For me, it was four years. But to come back to that time, again, living in New York, I came back into Kennedy airport and I had my uniform on, had my--not knapsack, but we carried a big duffle bag with all our stuff in it--and I was going to get a cab and one of the skycaps--I don't know if you know what skycaps are. These are the individuals who worked at the airport and they would help you with your bags and also help you if you needed to get a cab or something like that. Well, before I got in the cab one of the skycaps said to me, don't lean into the window and tell him where you want to 00:22:00go, just get in the cab and then let him know where you want to go, because if you lean in and he finds out--I didn't live that far away from the airport, they don't like to take a short trip because it's not as much money. They want to take the big trip from the airport all the way into Manhattan or out to Brooklyn. And I lived out in the area, so I got in the cab, sat down and he asked me where I wanted to go and I told him. They can't put you out so he had to take me there and I gave him what I thought was a decent tip and he threw the money, the change that I gave him, threw it back at me. And, you know, I'm thinking well this is the thanks I get for having served. That was, that was difficult to take but that had really nothing to do with whether I was black, white, or what have you. I was a veteran coming back home. And to this day, this causes me, when I go different places, even at Costco where I'm working right now, when I see somebody who's coming there with a Vietnam vet, and I saw two today, I go over there and say thank you for serving. I'm also a Vietnam vet and 00:23:00we engage in a conversation. I don't care what color, what ethnicity they are, what sex they are, we talk and we're both very proud of having served and I always see people in the airport in their uniforms if they're not busy talking, I'll just say thank you very much for serving. And I just feel that, because that's what I thought I should have gotten when I got home, but I make sure that I share that with others - helped me along again, another one of those tiers that you go through in life as you're kind of moving along.

HB: So thinking a little bit more about current events and race-related dialogues that are going on right now, last week you brought up some of the race riots that you witnessed while you were in high school as being some of your first exposure to some of the issues that we're still dealing with today. So what differences do you see in the ways that these things are being handled today as opposed to when you were in high school?

BF: Well, the differences are that back at that time, again, I guess this had to 00:24:00do with my upbringing; I was not involved in any of the physical confrontations. There were other people that I kind of saw when I came over to school on the bus and I just went to class as I did, but there was stuff going on out in the street. Nobody ever hit me. They may have said some things and I may have said something back, but I never had that type of feeling. But when I kind of look at what was going on then, at that time, it was just kind of maybe hitting people, if there was any engagement between people, hitting with your hands or something else but not shooting or stabbing. And that's something that we're dealing with right now is just too much shooting going on. It's between races. It's within races. It's just some very ugly things going on. Life is something, and it's taking a life, and it was not that because you didn't hear or read about people 00:25:00who lost their lives but now you're hearing about people who are losing their lives, etcetera, for no good reason or to cause, the perpetrator does not really, I think, have a good reason. I think it's just a lot of hate or some issues that they've had and I'm just having some real issues with it. I'm even having issues about some of the things that I hear, just maybe almost weekly about things that are going on campus, and I heard some things about this campus. I heard some things about WMU obviously, that there are people from the neighborhood coming onto the campus and they're doing bad things to students, women, men, etcetera, robbing, just bullying and all that. And I think that that's, there's got to be something, that we've got to get some of these young people on a better track than they're on right now. And that's something that I 00:26:00have a hand in. Something that I'm working on to try to see if we can get to even a few at a time. If some people feel like you can't, it's not gonna be successful if you don't get to a large group at the same time. I feel like if you start off with a few, maybe just one or two, one or two can help multiply this. And this is something that I even picked up before but I heard again. I mentioned to you, I went to Chicago--I may have mentioned it to you--to a program that we're trying to start here. They have the program running and the students there they took me around and they came from that type of beginning where they could very well be in the streets, but now they had an opportunity to kind of better themselves and now start looking at the challenge of getting a degree and they were motivated. And what they were doing was going back to their friends who were still in the streets to try to get them engaged. So that's how you get small numbers to impact, to kind of maybe get more people to come in. And that's how I feel, like I would like to have a hand in, and as long as I'm 00:27:00still around to do some things like that.

HB: How do you think the shift towards some more fatal violence is impacting the movement in the direction of racial equality or racial healing?

BF: It's not helping much, and there's another part of it. It's not helping much if we don't really engage in some meaningful dialogue about it. It's, as long as you think that violence is going to kind of be the answer, and I look at several different groups. I look at groups that are, in one race like a black group, I look at some white hate groups and things like that. I look at Hispanic groups like that and some other groups like that and I think that as long as they're gonna just try to deal with this like, 'this is my turf' type thing versus 'how can we kind of share and collaborate with this turf and make it better for all 00:28:00parties involved?' If we can start working towards that end, I think that's going to be a lot healthier. It's not going to happen overnight, we know that. But it's going to certainly take time and a commitment and also the sense that I'm not one who throws up my hands easily and you've got to have people engaged who feel like there is a way of getting through this and we got to just come up with some meaningful solutions to this.

So I kind of believe that there can be solutions and if one thing doesn't work then you kind of look at some others or embellish that to see how you can improve that to see how it will work, but don't just keep doing the same thing over and over again and walk away from each other without really having a dialogue and talking.

HB: So how do you think that those dialogues could be best generated and fostered?

BF: I think that there's got to be the feeling of all parties involved to, say, rather than saying it's not, it's without-- The words are not said, "It's not a 00:29:00good thing to discuss," but the implications are loud. The body language talks for itself, to say that I, and I know this from - I'm not going to get into the institution, but there's an institution that I was working at recently, we had some programs there that were, that were about enhancing relations and also helping hopefully to bring in a better mix of individuals to better represent the community. And just watching the body language of some people who were in rather influential positions there, that, you could just tell that it's almost like "Why am I here?" And, and the body language said that and I kind of, you know, it's just like, the, it's just like the words being said, and, if you're going to come in there with a closed mind, to think in terms of the fact that "I really don't need to be here because I think I already know, I know because," and the first thing that comes up is "My best friend was," and when I started 00:30:00hearing that through the years that I been through, when you start talking about "My best friend was white" or "My best friend was black," then you're trying too hard to get a point across. Let's go beyond that and talk about what types of things that you feel like. You talk about--different things that are, kind of--that are, taught of, let's say, an ethnic group, that you know that is not right, and, but you want to kind of in a sense, rather than being open about it, you want to, in a sense, defend it, and then maybe talk about the fact that others just don't have, let's say, the ties that I had or the connectivity that I had, and that's why they're not gonna get ahead. That's kind of very, very close. I'd like to see, again, more open dialogue, 'cause nothing is going to change without some degree of pain and difficulty. It's just that's the only way, and you know nobody likes pain, but sometimes you gotta go through pain to get to the good things, get to a better feeling.

HB: Do you think that those dialogues could be incorporated in our public education system in some way?

BF: Yes - very much so, very much so.

HB: How so?

BF: Because you well, well one thing would be that you also have a, a balanced mix of individuals who are, let's say, if you go from the top down, that you have individuals up there who I think have a, a better understanding and it's just, just, that I mean just, just to have let's say, people who are of color to deal with people of color, but to have people who are of any ethnicity who understand, I think, kind of really dealing with a cross-section of people versus having dealt with maybe just a small segment of people and then trying to kind of take on an understanding without really I think taking the time to learn more, having maybe read some more, spent some time in a, in a community to see 00:32:00more about it. It's like the police activity that was going on in the area of St. Louis, that, on both sides I think, peaceful protest, I support. The types of things where they start burning down in their own neighborhoods I do not support, but I do think that there is a need to deal with community policing, where the individuals who are out there, who are policing others, also understand the community, and I think that's something that was lacking there. I think there are a lot of communities that have taken the time to do more effective community policing. And I kind of, just a quick note too, I was, I mentioned I was a commissioner in the town I lived in, a police fire commissioner in Chicago, in the town Rolling Meadows I lived in, and one of the things they like us to do is to do a ride around with both the fire department and the police department, and I did ride around with a, a police officer, a female police officer, and she had something that came up, it was kind of a 00:33:00confrontation, and to see her when she had to stop and how she dealt with it--she was trained so well, as to how to deal with it. It could have very well been that she got out and just took her gun out and dealt with it that way, but she was talking, communicating, connecting with the individuals and resolved it. I'd like to see more of that going on that I think is gonna be much healthier for the communities and not that we have to deal with another funeral of an individual who whether right, wrong, or otherwise, should not have been killed.

HB: I can't remember if you mentioned this last time or not, but are you doing any work in Kalamazoo to foster that relationship between communities and the police?

BF: Indirectly, yes, 'cause I've been involved with, the, some of the programs that we're having, Donna Odom is, is very much, you know, you know Donna. She's invited me in to do some talks. I was involved at KVCC with a group there that 00:34:00was trying to do some things at KVCC that would help, hopefully, improve, I think, the mix from the top down of the, say individuals who were teachers who were kind of looked like a better balance of, let's say, student/instructors, who were, certainly they had a majority of white instructors, but they have a very small number of black instructors, a very small number of Hispanic instructors. So to think in terms of how things could be done a little bit differently that they have that, starting from that level down and then also providing a comfort level to students, and they also talk about retention--and there're certain things you do for retention, when you have students who come there and don't feel comfortable, or don't feel like this is a friendly environment for them, they're going to leave. Some of them leave and go to another school, maybe going up to Battle Creek to school they feel is more 00:35:00friendly, that the system is not--it's a very good system that they had at KVCC, but they go to another system because, they feel like it's a friendlier system, and they're willing to kind of maybe sacrifice getting an education in certain areas that may not be as good as they would get right here in Kalamazoo. So, how do you kind of maybe look at things? You've got to factor that into this whole equation of retention. There's a lot of things you got to look at. That's one of many things that you look at when you talk about really trying to tackle this issue of retention and holding onto the students that we have and also helping students to better understand what they have in something like the Kalamazoo Promise, to enable them to, I think, recognize that this is something that they have that not many, or very few cities really have, to help them get through school, which kind of makes it much easier on their parents to see them through school.

HB: So last time you also talked about the self-esteem that your parents helped 00:36:00instill in you?

BF: Yes.

HB: How has that experience with your parents affected you as both a father and a mentor?

BF: Very much so. It's been, been such that with, with my, my two sons and my step-children, I'm there for them. I have, a poor, and I'll say this candidly as I can, I have a poor relationship with my younger son right now. And I think it's because of the industry that he's in that I'm not, I'm not. He's in the tattoo industry. He has a tattoo business in Georgia, and there's certain mindsets to go in that business. And he seems to have lost respect for, for me, and I think that's tied in with the divorce that his mother and I had. So he seems to have come down hard and he and I have not spoken for--I'd say it must be close to four years now. But the good thing is that his wife has reached out, 00:37:00and she's making sure that the kids, there are three of them, one in college, one in middle school, and the other one who's gonna be six coming up the end of the month. She has made sure that we're in contact with them and I did get to see them. My oldest son's retired from the military and we had a chance. The youngest one didn't know me that well, but she got to know me a lot better, and she even came over and stayed with us when we had my other, one of my other, my stepson's granddaughter with us, and they bonded and connected very well. So that's the good thing, that we're there. So whether--I love my son dearly, the one who's not really connecting with me, but at some point it might happen, but she, his wife has invited us down for the birthday party at the end of this month. It just so happens that my son is gonna be out of the country on a tattoo show, so he and I won't get to see each other, but I will be down there with my grandchildren and her. So I would say the self-esteem is something that I've certainly passed along, and I've learned it. I didn't force it upon them. I know 00:38:00for a while there I kinda, my father wanted me to go to law school. That was his mindset. It was not to sit down with me to say, "What would you like to do?" and when I told him, "Dad, I am not interested in law," and I went to, went the route of business, business management's what I got my degree in, but he wanted me to do that, and I made up my mind that after that I did not want to force my sons, but I wanted to expose them to different things. Like I used to do, hire a lot of engineers, and I was involved with an engineering program, University Michigan, Michigan State, several different schools throughout the country, and I did have my son come to a summer program. He came and enjoyed it, but he decided that engineering was not where he wanted to be. I didn't hold that against him. I didn't force it upon him. I wanted him to get exposure to determine what it was that he felt that he was best suited for and what he wanted to do, and I felt that was a rather important lesson learned from my parents who built a self-esteem. My father was gone. He just said he wanted me to just, kinda do as he wanted me to do, but that's just, that's just my father 00:39:00who I loved dearly, but it helped me to, I think, learn how to kind of deal a little bit differently with my, with my children as well.

HB: Do you see that coming into play in your mentoring as well with KVCC students?

BF: As far as trying to help them build self-esteem? Yes, oh yeah, definitely, it did. I, of course, I left there in July, but that was one of the things that I think a lot of students felt that they were, you know, getting out of me, 'cause I saw some of the students who came in there - it's almost like, you know, "They told me I had to come in here, but I really don't want to be here," but then some of these same students, after we sat down, had a chance to talk, one of the things I chose to do, and this is just my way of doing things, and even if it meant, sometimes, the system up there felt like you gotta go ahead and hit that home run the first time. When they come to the office you gotta make sure you get them to sign up, and I didn't quite agree with that. I felt that if somebody came in and they wanted to talk, let's just put that on hold and let's talk to get to know each other. Let them, let them tell me what's 00:40:00going on with them and also share with them some things about me. And then let's look at setting up another meeting where we can kind of--it's an icebreaker. If we don't break that ice, it's going to be very difficult for them to want to come back. But if we break that ice and it seems like it's been impactful to have the meeting that we have, then they'll come back. And I had students that were coming back consistently with me and I was only part time, and I had probably among the largest number of students. I had sixty-five, give or take, students at any given time. I was not seeing them all at the same time. Some would come in--very few came in every week; most of them came in every two weeks. Some came in every three weeks to meet with me, depending upon how they were doing. If they needed more, they came in to see me more often, but they came back, and were being consistent. So that I think is something that, that, I just developed and that's, that's the, the way-- I like to feel like that's the 00:41:00way somebody would have treated me, when I was coming along ,so I felt like that was the way wanted to kind of, you know, treat them.

HB: You talked about some of the hate that you experienced while you were in school. Have you heard any stories, as you've mentored, from students that are along the same lines or, or different?

BF: I've heard stories. Yeah, I've heard different stories from different students. I had a student who was from Africa who was coming through the nursing program at KVCC, and she felt that there was a, a good deal of insensitivity in the program coming through there as to how she was dealt with there. She finally ended up, at one point, dropping out and I think she ended up, I think she ended up going over to a smaller school for a nursing program, but she, having come up in, I can't remember which, Kenya or one of the countries, one of the African countries, just felt that she was not treated the same as other students in the 00:42:00class, and she did come in and we did help to, kind of, I think, help build a self-esteem with her, but she still ran into the wall with them. She felt comfortable with me, 'cause she even called me at times when she was, she really felt like she was ready to give up, and she wanted to talk. So that kind of was I think a rapport that, that I built up with them. And I don't, I don't, you know, try to do this just because somebody is not a, not a textbook approach, this is an approach from my heart that I like to, you know, deal with people in a manner that seems like it's gonna have an impact on them. And you don't impact everybody 'cause there's some people who no matter what you do, you just don't connect, and that does happen. It's happened with me, and I feel like I've been able to connect with more than not connect with a smaller number.

HB: So, after navigating a number of predominantly white work environments in 00:43:00your, in your life experience, what advice might you have for young people of color today who are navigating similar experiences or similar environments?

BF: Okay. I'd say do a very, very good job first thing, and I help a lot, it goes much before this, but one of the things I do is a lot of people that I know, and I know their parents, they come and talk with me about resume writing. This is my area 'cause I've done that in HR, so to help them with resumes, with interviewing, listening effectively, kind of talking and knowing, knowing how to, I think, not just keep talking at somebody. I had a sales manager who would ask me a question. It was a tactic that he had, and at first and I didn't catch on. He would ask me a question, and I would answer it. He would remain silent, and I felt like maybe I didn't answer it adequately enough, so I keep talking, 00:44:00and he would still remain silent, so I keep talking but what you have to, you're doing is offering probably more information than you really need to. Along the way I learned how to get to the place where I answered the question and I remained silent. He remained silent and I remained silent, and finally he decided, "Well, evidently I gotta, gotta move on to the next question." I try to share that type of information with students - just be assured of yourself. Do your research about a company or organization that you going into so you don't go in there with, let's say, maybe having to ask--go in there with questions, but don't go in there asking questions that you should have picked up on your research. Don't go in there asking about the salary at the first part of the interview. Just go in there and think, think in terms of you want to learn as much as you can, but you want to also impress. You don't want to over-impress, overpower somebody in the interview, and you don't want to come across in a 00:45:00manner that kinda says, you're not making eye contact, you're just not sure of yourself. You want to be sure of yourself and you want to also listen effectively to be able to respond. So I try to, you know, I think, instill that into individuals as much as possible, not only students. There's some - 'cause I had a lot of, not only younger students, I had some older students - who had been in the workplace and all of a sudden their job went away, and they had to come back to school at an age of, let's say, maybe in their late forties and some in their fifties, and there's another type of uncertainty that they have. So you gotta help at this late stage, try to kind of help them to build a degree of certainty as to the fact that it's not all over for you; there's certain things you can do to kind of have another, another stab at something that would be a new career or transition for you, as such, to have hope above all. So, if that answers your question.

HB: Do you see programs such as the Kalamazoo Promise and Communities in Schools 00:46:00as another example as being effective in working towards a more equal education in Kalamazoo?

BF: Yeah, they, they are, but the one thing I think is, as, as many programs as you have out here that are doing different things, there has to be a lot of cross-collaboration. If you have too many splinters working, supposedly toward the same ends, and you're not working together collaboratively-- 'cause different programs are doing different things there are certain programs that are impacting, a certain segment or age group. There are other programs that may be going to another end of the spectrum as far as the age group--but you want to kind of, there's always some connectivity, but if you can collaborate to know how [coughs] excuse me, how these programs can, I think, work together, rather than trying to think in terms of starting a program that is trying to maybe, one program's trying to, maybe one program's trying to say, "I'm going to outdo this program," and that's where the splinter effect takes place. You want to think in 00:47:00terms of how we can kind of, better match our resources, match our ideas and see how we can kind of come out in, let's say, a win-win situation for the individuals that we're trying to help, not put the egos in place. The egos you got to put out. Sometimes it's the egos that kind of get into, that take things over, and cause people to feel like, "This is my turf, not your turf." But why can't it be that this is our turf, together? Let's grow together and let's see how we can do, let's say, what we have to do that's going to be in the best interest of the individuals that we're trying to really impact, hopefully positively.

HB: Do you have any specific thoughts on how that collaboration could be better fostered?

BF: I do. I, I the most key thing is the word I use, I think, that going back to egos. First thing you got to take is take the ego out of it and don't let the ego -'cause the ego causes a lot of things. You know, there's kind of this pride 00:48:00and this thing of, you know, "I gotta be the king of the mountain." When you got that in place it's, it's not gonna go anywhere, so that's the number one you gotta do is put those egos aside, and then sit down and get down to some grassroots discussions about what's working well with this program, what's working well with that program, and what's not working well, and see why they're not working well. Maybe one program's coming along with some ideas that are starting to take place and this other program can kind of really benefit from that, so how can we kind of pool the resources of these two programs to think in terms of how we can again work in the best interests of the individuals that we're trying to improve, rather than think in terms of let's just not, let's just put them aside and think in terms of what's gonna be in our own best interests. That's when it gets bogged down. So let's take our own personal best interests out and think in terms of how it's going to benefit the audience that we're after in the best sense possible.

HB: Building off of that, what inspires some of your work at Borgess and at KVCC?

BF: Well, the way that we got started at Borgess, and let me know if I mentioned this before, I don't think I did, we moved. My wife and I moved my mother from Florida up here. She was in her, I think she was about ninety when she, when she came up here, and she was, she lived a great life. She didn't have Alzheimer's. She was doing crossword puzzles, just staying active and playing cards, Solitaire every day, and, but, she was down there through some hurricanes and didn't want to leave. She's a very proud woman, didn't want to leave the house to go over to my cousin's house for, you know, to be with somebody else. So I felt, I think in terms of her at her age having to go through more of that, let's talk her into coming up here, so we did have her come up here. I did not realize that she had emphysema. She never really told me. My mother was, again, was a West Indian mother. They kind of hold back on telling you a lot of things. So we didn't realize it here until we took her to a doctor who really kind of 00:50:00was helpful, 'cause the doctor down there that she had was just giving her this little things that they use for asthma and it really wasn't helping her. Our doctor here realized that he, it was just, it was a, was a crutch, but it wasn't doing anything for her. So anyway she got sick while she was with us. Within six months' time she passed away. Borgess took such good care of her that my wife started off, she was the one who said, "You know, I want to give back to Borgess", after my mother passed away she says, "I wanna go over there and volunteer, 'cause I just appreciate all that they did." So she started volunteering, and then, probably after a few years of her volunteering, she told the person who ran volunteer services some things about my background, and they needed to have somebody who could do phone interviews which I used to not like at all, but I know it's a way of life now because you know you have so many candidates, you can't see everybody. So the phone interview is a very effective tool, so they kind of talked to me about doing the phone interviews and had me set up different things, tools that we use right now, so the sheet, the 00:51:00questions we ask etcetera. And I started doing the phone interviews and I've been doing them for several years. And I go in maybe, maybe every other week and do phone interviews. I do about maybe, six to eight candidates, and within a two, two hour, two and a half hour window. So I just feel like it's an opportunity to, you know, to give back, and I can talk to young students who are looking for things, like they're looking to go into healthcare of some kind - nursing, hospital management, things like that. I just recommend that don't turn your nose up at volunteering. Don't just think because it doesn't pay money to say, you're not gonna do it because it does give you experience, it does help build a resume, but it also gives you the exposure, that if let's say there's a possibility of your coming to that hospital, that they know some things about you, etcetera. So I share that with some people who are, who even work at Costco with me who are in a nursing program and they're going to be calling in to do an application online to come in, so I kind of, I feel like it's something that is 00:52:00very fulfilling to be able to, to do that.

HB: After our last interview you also talked about some of your aspirations for some future youth-oriented programs that you maybe are working on right now

BF: Yes.

HB: Could you tell us a little more about those programs?

BF: There's a program I mentioned some, I mentioned somewhat to you. There's a program that's in twelve cities, I think. After the close of 2014 they were supposed to be adding two cities, so I believe it's now fourteen cities - not in Michigan at all. But it's a program that's working with students who are in high school who have no inclination to going to college, maybe don't have the, just the motivation or the push from home, or whatever, it's lacking. To be able to give them I believe a sense of - let's say again, through exposure to see what the value of, let's say, going into a program, even if it's going to be a 00:53:00certificate, not an associate's, not a bachelor's, and if they start kind of sensing that they can achieve what's necessary to earn a certificate - now start working on the fact that now, now you can consider working. It's not going to happen in all cases. Some people are gonna be ready to go to work after they get the certificate. They're better off than they were by not having it at all, so now you can get some of those individuals to think in terms of going for the two-year degree, and now they have another credential, and if they believe in themselves and show that they could do what they did not believe that they could do, that you can even start talking to some of them about going for a four-year degree. But yet, in the meantime, there you have companies that are committed, that will provide internships for these students, paying internships, and they're getting experience. They're getting paid for it, and they're also getting into something that maybe they didn't think they could get into before. And hopefully at the end of, let's say, whatever it is, certificate, 00:54:00associate's, bachelor's, that they can hopefully get a job there, if this company's hiring. If not, then hopefully the company knows enough about them that they can make a great recommendation to another company for them to come in there. It has worked with these other cities that've been involved, and I know that we need something like that here in the worst way. It's just a matter of getting people with very busy schedules to stay involved with this. So it's a time commitment for us to get this off the ground and we can't get it off the ground with just a few people. We need a cross-collaboration of all the people involved from, from different programs. So that's what we're working at now and we've got some meetings coming up at the end of the week to further discuss this. We're trying for, not just Kalamazoo, but hopefully for the southwest Michigan area to try to get this started.

HB: What role would a program like that play in the community within Kalamazoo?

BF: It would play a great role, because it's gonna hopefully get some people, 00:55:00let's say, that typically would be typically dead-ended to get them, more focused on something that's gonna kind of get them out of that little, this little trap that they've been in, where it causes them to do harm to other people, to now think in terms how of instead of by doing harm to others, "Because for whatever I just feel like I'm supposed to take from others," now think in terms of how you can develop a kind of a mindset that you can, that you can earn some things for yourself and you don't have to take from others. You can earn some things yourself. So I think that's the role, and that's a big shift. It's not an easy shift, but I think that's the role that it can it, can play if we really get this thing, I think, on track. And again, I think there's history that it has worked and this is all the way from the west coast to programs based in Boston, and it's in Florida, and it's in Chicago. It's in New York, so it's in a lot of cities. This'll be one of the smaller cities here, one of the smaller areas of southwest Michigan, but yet it's a great need to have it here. And they agree, but we have to justify why we would have the program come 00:56:00here and that's what we're trying to do, get that justification together. I believe in it, I and I'm not looking to, certainly, lead it. I just want to be involved. I'd like to do some training with the program, but I think we need to--once we do get it off the ground--get a young person on board. Because it's gonna take a young person to be committed, 'cause they're going to need to be there for a few years to really grow this program. And I think that I, this is again, egos aside, I'm not pushing for me to be there at the lead. I'm looking, we're looking for somebody else to do that. I just want to be involved as a catalyst to help this thing take off and make it happen.

HB: I think we're almost out of time, but if there's anything else, Mr. Foster, that you would like to add to or, or add on at the end?

BF: I just had, I know you're doing some work with, on James Baldwin right now and I, I had several quotes, but I just picked out one that I'd like to just 00:57:00share which is a few words but which says quite a bit: "I love America more than any other country in the world, and exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her," in the words of James Baldwin. And I agree with that. If we can criticize in order to, I think, make people realize that, you're not, you're not criticizing in a hateful manner, but you're criticizing to constructively help and develop, then that's not bad. And that is, I think, a saying, a worthy saying.

HB: Thank you so much for, for coming out here and talking to us for both of these interviews. We really appreciate it.

B: Okay. Thank you very much for having me. I've enjoyed it.