Lois Fisher Interview 1

Sarah Bragg: This is Sarah Bragg from Kalamazoo College interviewing Lois Fisher on January 25, 2016. Thank you so much for being a part of the Engaging the Wisdom Oral History Project.

Lois Fisher: Thank you.

SB: Would you please tell us your name and current address?

LF: My name is Lois Michelle James Fisher. I live at 4368 Foxfire Trail in Portage, Michigan.

SB: Ok, so we're going to start with a little bit of information from your early life. Where were you born?

LF: I was born in Washington D.C.


SB: And how did that shape you in your youth?

LF: Well, it kinda centered myself and my family right in the throws of, you know, the political scene, historic scene. My parents made sure that we visited 00:01:00all of the important historical buildings and monuments, so that was a real learning experience for me and something that I've really appreciated

SB: So were you all close as a family?

LF: Very close. I was an only child, am an only child (smiles). But, we were a very close family and remain close to our extended family.

SB: So what were your parents like?

LF: (Smiles) Cool! (laughs) My dad was a, a fun guy. He was a very intelligent man and I could appreciate that because for most of my life, my early childhood, 00:02:00he was also in school. He was attending Howard University, as well as working full time and, interestingly enough, my mother also was a student, but she only took maybe one class a semester, sometimes one class a year because she worked full time in the government, but, they both were very good parents - very good people to know. I, I classify, er call people good people if they're someone that I wanna be around. They shared their information. They guided me and good values to have as a person, good values and aspirations to have as a young lady - how I should be when I grow up, and to set goals for myself, both in school 00:03:00and, ya know, looking towards a career - very education-minded. My mother eventually graduated, as a matter of fact, the year before I did from Western (smiles) in Education, and I graduated with a degree in Education also. My father graduated from Howard School of Religion and became ordained as a minister. So, that was another very important part of our family. When they were fairly newly married they helped to found a church in Washington D.C., which today is one of the, one of the large churches in D.C. - the Canaan Baptist Church. So they were very, very much in tune to religious values and beliefs.

SB: So what kind of things did you all do as a family? Did you all ever travel, or -

LF: Oh! We traveled all the time. And when I say travelled, I mean trips mainly to the South because they were both raised in Memphis, Tennessee so there always was a trip to Memphis in the summer and as necessary during the year, and, after my father - no he hadn't quite graduated Howard yet, but as a part of his trainings for the ministry he worked as a migrant minister and he was assigned to Upper State New York. So we, my mother and I, always travelled to New York, to join him whenever it was convenient vacation-wise for me. So, we would travel 00:05:00in New York and then just, you know, other vacation spots to visit friends and family.

SB: So during that time period what was it like, like, what were your experiences like travelling to Memphis, to the South at that time?

LF: Well in my very early years I didn't know any different. I, it was just my family going on vacation and we would always drive if the three of us were going, travelling. If it was just my mother and I, we would usually take the bus or the train and that was an experience, but it was always a fun thing for me to do until I began to understand a little bit more about what was going on in the world, as my parents would talk to me and advise me on what to do and what not 00:06:00to do, what to say, what not to say, as we travelled. We always had, if we were driving, we always were mindful of where we stopped for gas, not to have to interact with local people very much. I remember an incident once when we were travelling and my dad had gone inside to refill his coffee thermos and I was supposed to stay in the car (smiles and laughs) and my mom was napping, but before she realized it, I had gotten out of the car - you know, excited, wanted to go with my dad and ask him if I could get something and I did and I burst into the, it was just a little, kind of like a coffee shop and there were a few 00:07:00people in there. Mostly men, or, or young boys and when I came in, you know I was exuberant and, "Dad can I get -- "and all, all, I mean everyone's attention was focused right on me and it just, it, when you have eyes piercing into you, you know it's like, "What's wrong? what did I do? And then dad said, "Go back outside, now." And it was the way he said now. It was like, "Hurry! You do that!" So I did. And of course when he got to the car I got a good talking to about stayin' in the car like I was told because, you know, something could have gone wrong in there and of course I wanted to know why? You know, what could go wrong? And got the talk about where we were. We didn't know those people, and 00:08:00more than likely, they did not appreciate or want us to be there, and of course why? (smiles) And, then, you know, got the talk about people not liking, caring for, or wanting people of different color, different race. So that's when I really got it. - my race and education from travelling in the South. And of course when mom and I would travel, it was always interesting, as she always packed a lunch for us - not just a lunch - a lunch and a dinner because it was a long trip, but we, we never had to buy food either in route or if we were stopped at a rest station or whatever. We never had to go into a rest station to 00:09:00purchase food. She, you know, prepared it for us so that we wouldn't have to have those interactions and she was very careful to show me, or take me, to the correct area to use the restroom, to get water out of the water fountain, and yes, yeah I remember, you know, colored only (indicates quotes with hands) whites only (indicates quotes with hands) signs in the little restaurants or the, the water fountains, different areas of the gas stations and that kind of thing. So, it was, you know, you always have those questions of why do people treat other people like that and as I grew up it happened more and more. So I, I 00:10:00got my race relations and education early on.

SB: Ok, so, how did you all end up in Kalamazoo? What was that transition like, from Washington D.C. here to a - ?

LF: Well that's an interesting story also. Like I said, my father was a minister, and a friend of his who was a classmate at Howard was the pastor of a church in Grand Rapids and he had heard about an opening in Kalamazoo. Now (smiles) you're gonna think that this is funny, but, I, as a ninth-grader, had never heard of Kalamazoo. I mean what kinda name was that? So of course, I was 00:11:00against any thoughts of us moving, you know. My parents had me to understand that yes, there is a place called Kalamazoo, about the stove and about the song "I've Got a Gal in Kalamazoo" but I wasn't having any parts of that. But it was a issue of my dad's career and the calling. Now we, we were raised Baptist, but at the time my father was pastoring a Presbyterian church and this call for, to ministry in Kalamazoo was in a Reformed Church. Of course, I had never heard of the Reformed denomination only to find out that, which my dad already knew, was 00:12:00that a Dutch Reformed. That was the origins of Reformed and historically there were no blacks in the Reformed Church of America. But, at that time, now this is in '60, the late 60s, was when he was first approached so at that time, or by that time, there had been a few Black Americans who had joined Reformed Denomination­ churches, in other areas, ok. And, he did some, some research and found out about it, and Kalamazoo, at the time was very heavily Reformed Denomination amongst the Caucasian residents. There were at least, I wanna say, 00:13:00about ten, ten to fifteen Reformed Churches in Kalamazoo, that, and none of those had any black members. And, of course, in the, among the, the Black Americans, you know, you had Baptists, Methodists, AME, Presbyterian, and Church of God in Christ, but, like I said, there were no blacks in the Reformed Denomination, and, as he'd learn more about this particular assignment, he was given to understand that there was a mission church starting, or they wanted to start a mission church for the black community on the north side of Kalamazoo. 00:14:00And eventually that's the position that my father took. He was the missionary pastor for North Community Reformed Church which had its membership under the auspices of Third Reformed Church on the north side. Third is on Westnedge Avenue, and our church was formed as a missionary church. And then over the years, I think about, I, I'm not sure how many, but about five to, about five years later we became a fully-organized church on our own feet in Kalamazoo and 00:15:00that church was located on, the first church was located on Park and Frank, and then we moved when we became our own church (smiles) to Patterson and Park. And, that was a real big deal for my dad. He became known within the denomination nationally because he was one of very few black ministers in the Reformed Denomination. And started and was the first president of the Black Caucus of the Reformed Denomination, so that was history-making for us and that's how we got here.

SB: What was high school like here?

LF: Interesting. Now, like I said, when we moved here I was in ninth grade, went 00:16:00to Lincoln Junior High, which was the name at that time, and, then, for high school, went to Loy Norrix High School. I think I was (counts inaudibly to herself), I think there were seven blacks in my class in the tenth grade class. There were, I wanna say, five other blacks there who were in the junior or the senior class. Um, but our class had seven and this was in the first few years of Loy Norrix, opening in '61. That's when I started. Kind of interesting because, 00:17:00you know, y-you really didn't think of Kalamazoo being a biased, a segregated city, a city of ill-will or having race relations problems, but there were problems and there were biases and attitudes that were very present. Some of the behaviors were blatant and out-front, but most of them were held back or hidden, not talked about very often, but you knew they were there, and you kinda got that feeling as you attended school every day in a high school full of, you know, other people. We from the northside rode the bus, had to go downtown - 00:18:00Patter-uh-Rose and Michigan to transfer to get the bus to get all the way out to Loy Norrix and sometimes there were chants or rumblings about 'the natives are coming' and-or they'd have sounds like jungle noises, you know, when we'd be walking down the hall. Sometimes there was just blatant behaviors, like if you went to sit at a table in the lunch room, if people were already there you know at a, in another part of the table, they'd get up and leave or be bold enough to say "You can't sit here" - cold shoulders when you first went into a new class. 00:19:00But I will say that there were many, many classmates who were very positive, very welcoming, very kind, went out of their way to be kind because they could see some of the bad behaviors that were exhibited, so although it wasn't comfortable all the time, there were classmates who became friends, who were kind and staff members who were kind, but there were also some staff members we knew didn't have that kindness in their heart, okay? It wasn't something that was so bold that you know you could make an ap, accusation because you didn't have th-the proof, but attitude was there, and so it was a different kind of experience.

SB: Did you expect the experiences here in the Midwest to be different at all from your experiences in the South and or in Washington D.C. in terms of race relations?

LF: (Pause) Yea um, did I expect (clears throat) no I didn't expect 'em to be different because I knew, you know, it-it was generally known that when you were in the South, you know, you expected blatant, very overt behaviors, attitudes, and language okay? You knew it was gonna happen. You, you could expect it, but we also knew that further North you got, the behaviors, were not as overt or as 00:21:00bold or as easily recognized because it was a hidden attitude or behavior because you on the outside people pretended to be kind and not have racist attitudes but underneath, in the heart, they did and sometimes they came out, but so, generally speaking, you knew exactly what you were dealing with, if you were in the South - certain ways you had to act, certain things you couldn't do, you had to be careful of, but the further North you got, it wasn't as overt or blatant, so it was hmmm you know 'do they really mean it or not?'

SB: So you attended Western Michigan University-

LF: Oh y-yea um-

SB: What were those experiences like?

LF: By the time I went to, came to Western, things were much better. I uh attended and graduated, receiving my bachelors and then my master's degree at Western

SB: In what ways was that pursuit of education influenced by your parents?

LF: Very much influenced. Education was key. That was one of the things that was instilled in me early, early on. You went to school to learn, you didn't go to school to play. Y-you were expected to go, behave yourself, and learn as much as you could because you were preparing yourself for life so you-you had to learn as much as you could, be the best that you could be, learn as much as you could 00:23:00so that you could be well-prepared to go out and get a job and build a life and make a career, so that was very, very important.

SB: So how was your career in education? You were a teacher?

LF: Yea. I loved being a teacher. I taught in Kalamazoo for approximately 15 years, started I-I graduated in January and uh of '72 and got a job the next week [chuckles] Ms. uh Claire, I think her last name was Harbeck, was my first 00:24:00supervisor. I was hired as a remedial reading and math teacher, and you'll never believe where my first classroom was. It sounds funny and strange, but it was a concerted effort t-to give kids the best opportunity. As the remedial teacher in a program that was newly-instituted with the KPS, Kalamazoo Public Schools, it was being done in the middle of the year and all the classrooms were full, okay? So my first assignment was at Washington Elementary, but there were no classrooms available for this new class that was being instituted in all of our 00:25:00elementary schools, so my first classroom was in the boiler room downstairs. But my kids they, we made the best of it, you know. We'd go down those stairs and sit, they, you know, cleared an area for us, set up a-a desk and chairs and they put a mobile blackboard. I had a tape system that I used. But we made the best of the situation and I was only there for-, I wanna say, one and a half years, because you know, they had to make adjustments with the facility usage and they finally did, but from that I became a fourth grade teacher, then a sixth grade 00:26:00teacher, 'scuse me, and then I found out that Western was starting a middle school education ba-, master's program and I wanted to try that. And I was in the first class. We started with, I think, forty-two people in that master's program. It was gonna be an intensive, full-time, one-year program, and we would work full-time, at least I was working full-time, go to school in the evenings, and I wanna say, it-it was at least three days, three nights a week and it may have been a, some couple semesters two nights a week and Saturdays and then 00:27:00lab-time on Sundays, so it was intense - I'm sorry it wasn't one year. It was a two-year program and finished that and we finished with twenty-two students, so some of them dropped out, but I was very proud to be a part of that, first- ever middle school master's program at Western and, but I had to wait a couple years in KPS for an opening in the middle school and finally got it and went to Thompson, uh, I'm sorry that's in Southfield [Michigan] went to Milwood Junior High and taught there.

SB: So how do you think the Kalamazoo Promise has impacted education in Kalamazoo?

LF: Fantastic, I think it's a fantastic opportunity. It's very encouraging and inspiring for young people that I've known to be, to know that if they stay in 00:28:00school, if they do the best they can, seek whatever help they need within the school system and in the community to help them do the best they can that there's something at the end of that time that they can look forward to, and I personally know two students who have, are in the middle of their college education now having gone there with a KPS Promise scholarship, very proud of them, very proud of them. I wish more school systems had the resources and the, 00:29:00the wherewithal to offer that kind of opportunity. Education is so key in these times and competition is very much, it makes, it make seeking a career and-and getting ahead in life very difficult if you don't have the opportunity for college, you don't have the resource, financial resources or some of the academic resources that you need. So whatever we can do to get youngsters to stay in school and to achieve at their highest potential, I think we should do more.

SB: So what would you say is one of the biggest accomplishments in your life?

LF: Wow. You're gonna make me cry. (chuckles) I'm a mom, very proud to be a mom 00:30:00and a grandmom, and I've always wanted to be both and I thank God that he allowed me to be able to see that come to frui-fruition and I just want to make sure that I do the best that I can as a mother to guide, direct, protect [sighs], love, and love some more; both my daughter and my grandchildren and 00:31:00then the next thing on the list would be to be an educator, to share those gifts and talents that God has blessed me with and I think I do it pretty well. I loved being a teacher, I loved the interaction, I loved seeing that, that switch click on when a student got the idea or finally understood something we were trying to-to learn t- and to finally get that, that concept t-to come to life for a student so that's the part that really excites me is when a student says 'I get it now, I get it.' So I love interacting with young people and I love to 00:32:00share whatever knowledge I have.

SB: So you've mentioned earlier how influential your parents were to you, the values that they instilled in you. Are there any particular values that they instilled in you that you have instilled in your children or you've worked to pass down to your children and their children?

LF: All of them. All of them. Uh I-I learned from the best they-they were fantastic parents; they were fantastic people, so I, you, the only thing you can do is do the best job you can, do the best you can do. So I took what knowledge I got from them and tried to pass it along. The only, my only regret is that I did not know or understand at the time when I was young that I needed to journal 00:33:00more or to talk more to my grandparents. That's the only thing that I regret. I don't know as much as I need to know about my grandparents and their ancestors. Unfortunately for African Americans or black Americans, we don't have some of the resources that other people have as far as record-keeping and so on and archives to go back and look up. Because most of our history - people of my generation - most of our ancestry or the history of our ancestry forebearers, has either been lost, or not recorded at all, or destroyed in fires, or 00:34:00water-damaged, this kind of thing. Or, just, just doesn't exist. So, I really don't know very much about my ancestors. And I really would like to. I know my dad's mother is from Madagascar, but other than that, all I know is that they were proud and poor people. And they raised good families - both sides.

SB: So, growing up in, well rather coming of age in the particular time period that you did, something that was very important and influential to the overall culture of this country was the Civil Rights Movement. When you think of the term civil rights, what exactly, what's the first few things that come to mind?

LF: Being able to live to your full capacity, and have the same rights and privileges as anyone else - basic human rights that everyone should be afforded - everyone.

SB: So, how did the civil rights events happening around that time, like surrounding you, or in other regions of the country, how did that impact you? Were you involved? Was your family involved, or --

LF: We were always involved in civil rights issues - marches, protests, boycotts. Marches - I can remember my family going to Memphis, specifically to 00:36:00be in a march with Dr. King. I can remember, Kalamazoo. I can remember, and I can see and hear the tanks going down Burdick Street -- armed, armed, I think was the National Guard, you know, with the megaphones, telling us about curfews or clearing the streets or, you know, what was going on at the time. I can remember lots of gunfire here in Kalamazoo, being, getting caught, so to speak. 00:37:00My husband and I were visiting friends in town and we were at their house. There were, I think, three or four couples. We were playing cards, and you know, something had happened downtown - no, not downtown, somewhere on the north side. And, you know, megaphones and the tanks that I had mentioned before. And it was a order not to, no one to come outside of the homes. And we couldn't go home, okay? It was a order, no one on the streets. I think it involved trying to find someone who had done something criminally. At any rate, that was scary. I can remember police officers, local police officers being accused of, I'll just say 00:38:00bad acts. Okay, I can't remember specifics now, but there were accusations of police brutality. There were proven cases of police brutality, and so on. So, somewhere around, in the early 60s, my dad is a minister in the community - worked with other ministers in the community, and they formed a group of them. And they would walk the streets at night trying to help solve problems, trying to talk to people to get them to follow particular laws and what have you, but 00:39:00also trying to prevent further incidents. And as a, I'm trying to remember the name of the organization that they formed, but it wasn't just black ministers. It was ministers from other denominations that made it their business. Their time to be active was late at night. And they would go to different neighborhoods and so on, and walk the streets and talk to whoever was out. And sometimes they assisted going with people to the jail to have someone to talk to.or to get lawyers, or to help facilitate solving a problem. And later the 00:40:00City Commission, excuse me, the police department called upon my dad to run a race relations series of courses and seminar for the police department, and that had interesting repercussions.

It was a positive thing to happen because there were legitimate claims and cases of bad acts.

And he was asked to do this. But there were people in the community - black and white - that didn't want him to do that. So, you know, kind of like being put in a bad place no matter what you do. Excuse me. One of the other things that's 00:41:00very memorable was a incident in Kalamazoo involving Van Avery's drugstore. Van Avery's was located at, on the corner of Burdick and, I forget the cross street, but it was a local drugstore, had a lunch counter. You could go there to pay your bills. They had a mini-post office station. They carried groceries. And some groceries and other typical things you'd find in a drugstore. And it was a popular store within the community. It was very convenient. But there were no black employees, in the middle of the black community. And when we - we, the 00:42:00NAACP talked about it and realized that, you know, you had a thriving business. A lot of, most of the black community used that store because it was convenient. And we did a test case. I was asked, and, let's see, there were three of us who were asked, who were black to go into Van Avery's and apply for a part-time job. You know, whatever position that was open, and we were denied the opportunity to 00:43:00even fill out an application. Following that, a young Caucasian female went in to apply, was given an application and she, in fact, was hired. So, suddenly there was a position open. So, when that was brought to the attention of the owners, of course they denied it. But we had the proof. And the NAACP decided that this was an issue that we could take to the community. And that was the, the start of the Van Avery boycott. I can't tell you how long it lasted, but it's archived in the Gazette - lasted several weeks, and was both favorably and 00:44:00unfavorably met by the white and the black community. Eventually, eventually, the boycott ended when an agreement was made that they would make - they being Van Avery's - would make concerted effort to hire black employees and to be more responsive to the needs of the black community, since it was a business that was 00:45:00thriving on the participation of the black community. But eventually they closed because the boycott was a really big success. It was a really big success.

And I can remember us meeting at Second Baptist Church., making the picket signs. I can remember walking that intersection, that corner, excuse me, walking up and down that line. And there were some city commissioners that took real objection to, you know, having that boycott. But it became a matter of great concern. And it also came to be an understanding that it was a legitimate 00:46:00concern and it was a legitimate problem. And that also led to looking at other issues within the community. Housing was a big problem. That led up to some changes in Kalamazoo because people were, were actually being denied access to housing in certain parts of town, whether you were black or white. If you, let's just say, a new family came into the area and they were looking for some place to rent or to buy. They were told, 'No, not over here. You can't live over here.' They would direct them to where to live. So, they were intentionally 00:47:00being directed to the north side neighborhoods rather than, you know, some of the other neighborhoods even though money, or finances was not an issue for the people. But that was a problem. Another problem was, was in the districting of the City Commission and the County Commission. So that was addressed also. There were problems in the schools because it was, it could be proven that some of the schools were not being serviced, funded, or staffed appropriately or equally. 00:48:00For instance, Central - I mean Central High School did not have the same resources that Norrix did, okay? Norrix was the white school. You know, using the quotes. You know, that was the attitude. That was the better school because it was newer. That's where the rich white people sent their kids. They got the best books. They got the new and innovative programs, that kind of thing - same thing, same thing in the junior high and in the elementary schools. They could, they could show that certain schools within the same level were not staffed, 00:49:00funded, or materials and the resources were not the same between buildings.

So that had to be addressed. And decision-making positions, be it city government or the school district leadership, county government. There were many disparities that had to be addressed.

Many were addressed and some of them it took actual legislation within the governmental body to make those changes. My father was, became the first Black American and the first Democrat to be elected to the County Board of 00:50:00Commissioners. That caused a whole bunch of mess (laughs). One of the City Commissioners took issue with the fact that he was a minister who was brought here as a mission pastor in his denomination and that it was his opinion he should just be a minister and stay out of politics. He didn't have any business trying to get into county government or having an opinion raised at the City Commission meetings. That was political. He was supposed to stay at the church. That caused a big ruckus and it was a defining point in Kalamazoo's history of 00:51:00governmental affairs and attitudes. So there've been many things, issues regarding civil rights and racial attitudes and behaviors over the years.

SB: So being that you were so involved in like political ac- political actions such as marching and protesting and things like that, given the recent events with the Black Lives Matter movement and things of that nature, what are your opinions on this- this current movement that's happening today?

LF: Well number one, it's my opinion there shouldn't have to be a movement to 00:52:00say that any life matters because all lives matter. The only reason there is a movement for Black Lives Matter is because for so many people it didn't matter--those lives were taken away from us. So it didn't become an issue until people made it an issue. It isn't that any one ethnic group's life matters more than another. That's not the point. And--you know--that's why I started out by saying all lives matter. Human life matters. It should matter. It should make a difference. But there is a movement for Black lives matter because there were a 00:53:00group of people or individuals who did not believe that all lives or anybody's life matters and took someone else's life. Therefore, we have a movement to draw attention to the fact that something is going on, where people, and in this instance Black Americans are being killed systematically or, you know, individually for whatever reason. But it's happening too many, too often, and that's why the movement started. That's why we had the Selma march, because people were not being allowed to vote and everybody who is a citizen of these 00:54:00United States has that right, but it wasn't happening. It didn't become an issue until it was pointed out and people tried to vote and they were not allowed to. That's why these issues or these movements or these situations become attention-getting is when the natural order is not happening the way it should.

SB: Okay so that concludes this portion of the interview.

LF: Okay.

SB: Thank you so much for agreeing to participate.

LF: Oh it's my honor-

SB: We really appreciate-

LF: and privilege to be able to share and to tell you what I think (laughs)

SB: So, um

LF: Thank you very much.

SB: No problem.