David Tulin

B: My name is Brooke Bryan. And I am here in the W Y S O studios with David Tulin. Director of fellowship farm. Antioch College alum from nineteen sixty-?

D: Six, sixty-seven.

B: Sixty-six, sixty-seven. We are here as part of the Yellow Springs civil rights oral history project with Antioch College and W Y S O for an interview which will be sort of a life story, David. Specifically, we're interested in your activities here during the mid sixty's, nineteen sixty-four when there was the Gegner demonstration which you were a part of. But we're also interested in your general life story, where you came from, how you came to be involved in this work, and how this works kind of inspired the work that you've done throughout the rest of your life. So we want to know about your time at the college, your time here doing civil rights work, and what that led you to do in the future so it's kind of a broad interview. I will do my best to keep up with our conversation and I will probably ask a lot of follow up question. First to 00:01:00begin, can you tell me your full name and where you are from.

D: David Tulin. I was born in Hartford, Connecticut. And I'm now in Philadelphia area. Pennsylvania.

B: And what was your birthday?

D: April twelfth nineteen forty-four.

B: Great. Tell me something about your family where did you grow up and what was that like?

D: We grew up in West Hartford, suburb of Hartford in a working class area. I was one of five children. And my mother and father both worked as musicians and as a civil engineer. And my grandfather who was an immigrant along with my grandmother was a self-made builder ever since the age of ten and went to public schools in the West Hartford area.

B: What kind of traditions did your family have or what are some of your 00:02:00earliest kind of memories or important moments?

D: Well it's because partly because of the conversation in the subject matter, but partly because it's part of it anyway, we're very close knit family very Jewish. Very close very trans- generational grandparents, parents and and others and we were my mother was a closet fighter against McCarthyism because it wasn't that easy to do that in those days. And when I was growing up. And I I was often the only Jewish person in any classes or any school that we were in or any neighborhood. So I was used to people being friendly playing ball with kids and then when Easter or Christmas came dirt-balls were thrown or names were called or you were excluded from a lot of things in those days. And and I found myself kind of identifying with the folks that work school to. So the only the 00:03:00so-called special ed folks there were folks I hung around with and recess. And the only African-American family in Connecticut. Their son Eugene Monroe was the only African-American in our school at the time. And I was the only person invited to have venison it is house which was unheard of in our family to have venison. Something hunted something. And so there was a kind of a social commitment and a sense of the minority majority empowered less than powered. But we had the privilege of being white and passing for simply white not just Jewish even though my grandfather hang on hung out the American flag to prove to the Gentiles that we were as American as they were even though they never put out their flag. So it's that kind of a history and then I was lucky enough thanks to 00:04:00I believe it was just trying to think of what it was I think of National Conference of Christians and Jews. Already And the N.E.M.C.P. there was some kind of project for middle school students who call a junior high at the time and I think I was one of them who volunteered to go into the north end of Hartford with some other white folks and mainly for African-Americans and really do prejudiced reduction probably in nineteen fifty five fifty six fifty seven something around there and and and we grew up in that area and I don't have much more powerful to to say at the moment but that was generally our neighborhood in our background.

B: That's amazing. So I imagine that you would come home with some stories of 00:05:00exclusion. Do you remember anything specifically that your family would say I mean how how were you as a child sort of taught to deal with exclusion?

D: It was a it was there were mixed messages on the one hand if they were talking about the Rosenbergs and whether they should be executed, they would talk almost in hushed voices as if the goyim-that means the non Jews and Gentiles-would hear that my mother or somebody was not as American as others because she opposed McCarthyism of that day. There was a lot of ambivalence around Israel. Because on the one hand if you were too Zionists in the just created state or early create a first ten years of the state, then you would be attacked by some other non jews Zionist Jews but particularly for others for not being patriotic enough for the United States. My grandfather, as I said wanted 00:06:00to be as American as possible, was in The World War one, you know. And had a G.I. one one two was was his license plate for his car that he kept all his life he was so proud of that and. And yet he. And he was very very strongly and committed Jewishly, talked about being in the army and not wanting to eat pork but having to survive and all those kinds of things. And we went to really you know religiously to religious school. Might be called Orthodox or modern orthodox at the time in the fifty's and. But he would always talk about standing up for yourself and not taking any crap. You know those kinds of things to the point actually when I had done some things wrong. I use that. And to say well he said this about me being a dirty Jew. So in other words there were people who called me a dirty Jew who threw dirt Bob's at me all that stuff. But then I use 00:07:00that to get off my family. So that they wouldn't attack me for doing something as well. That was just one incident that are him who were I I was a little ashamed of myself and all my, my sisters. Again we all had mainly Jewish friends because those were safer. But there were very few Jewish friends in our neighborhood or in our school at that time up until seventh eighth grade.

B: So about what year did you graduate high school?

D: Nineteen sixty-two.

B: Tell me about the political landscape of that time, what do you remember?

D: It was a huge Kennedy-Nixon divide. That was sixty I'm sorry nineteen sixty. So I was still in. You know. In high school and I remember the much more civil 00:08:00than today. But debates are around civil rights, around propaganda. We used to learn in school about how to be able to decipher a commercial propaganda. What they were trying to do to us from Madison Avenue or political propaganda and lying in political campaigns something that I don't see in the curriculum anymore but that's OK. And I remember I was there was a very strong vociferous Nixon supporter in our class and I volunteered to be the Kennedy supporter so we had kind of like, if you excuse the comparison because no comparison, the Lincoln-Douglas the meets we have the Kennedy-Nixon debates where I was Kennedy and. And Johnny Blank was was Nixon. And we went around the school debating and in those days and. And so that's a great deal of what I remember.

B: How do you think that the events in the political climate in the social 00:09:00climate of the mid to late fifty's, how do you think that sort of informed that time? I guess I want to pause a little bit on some of the period of time where Martin Luther King kind of came to be active and things around that Montgomery you know boycott and Rosa Parks. Do you. So you were basically how old?

D: Well first of all my parents were both singers. My father was a tenor operatic, my mother had gotten the contract for the Metropolitan Opera. She knew soaks she'd always talk about Lenny Bernstein’s; she went to Juilliard. And instead of going to the Met, she raised five kids. But she had a magnificent alto voice sang in church choirs and Jewish choirs and was a pianist and all that. And she among the people she admired was from the Constitution I'm just 00:10:00blocking her name I just had a for a moment. The amazing contralto African-American who was refused permission to give a public concert at Constitution Hall in Washington D.C. because it was run by the daughters of the American Revolution. So there was a great deal of anger at that in our family and support for Marian Anderson. Marian Anderson was an amazing. And then Eleanor Roosevelt believe it was in the Eisenhower era. Eleanor Roosevelt came out and actually supported and introduced Marian Anderson in a public performance rather than being able to be inside that hall. So in our family, because we were white and had white privilege, there were still. My dad would sometimes imitate African-American dialect as humor in the family I mean there was those kinds of things. But my the WERE use of the N. word one day we walked 00:11:00in the you know. I just heard this you know you know me mining now and then the N word was used and we always counted up and catch a tiger by the toe and all of a sudden I was repeating something in the neighborhood of my mother just thought we had just killed someone you know there was I care a huge issue around those kinds of issues. And my grandfather who I adored and was very close. Once in this was one I was in in Antioch education abroad I came back and we had an accident and. For the first time in our lives my grandfather used the N. word about the driver of the truck. And now my mother had been injured in the truck my grandfather been injured and all that. I didn't hear it but my sisters it was like the major thing oh my god grandpa used the N. word in the house so this was you know between fifty-eight and sixty three. You know those that kind of stuff. And my father had a before he went to the state of Connecticut is a kind of a 00:12:00bureaucrat or civil servant. He had a store and Windsor Street in North Hartford which was mainly African-American and Hispanic population who lived upstairs in front of all the stores. And it was a radical clash experience, I would go my sisters would go there. And we always had experiences. My mom and dad roll up the windows be careful. And we. And that was the first major teaching of racism and classism is when whether we're in New York at the Bowery and all kinds of messages that we a got it was very frustrating and confusing. I remember as a and I mean this is a cathartic experience my heavens but you're asking me I'm going across here is here. One of my first one people talk about the first time they they experienced race or difference or prejudice, I just remembered one time. I must have been six or seven years old and somebody decided to dress me 00:13:00up as a mammy. So they had and they had mask all around the mammy thing and the dress and the house dress everything else. And I remember inside. wondering why they're dressing me up like this. It was like totally. And then we went in the neighborhood. And people would open the door and either laugh uncomfortably I mean laugh that made me uncomfortable cause they're laughing at. Or they open the door shocked that I would be dressing up in a caricature. And I was you know in some ways the victim in a sense or the purveyor of old stereotypes that that people grew up with in those days. That can either help you learn your culture action so you can then be steeled about it and be in somehow a leader in it or that you could devolve into perpetrating that in the next. You know next number 00:14:00of years or generations so a lot of early different experiences and. Thankfully it. It continues to be read up to the present day my family is just. With all the biases that we all have inside of us is just something that I feel blessed about in spite not either in spite of or because of those experiences were raised with.

B: It seems like you grew up in a an environment that was sort of no stranger to the idea that exclusion but your experience kind of shows how we can all, we're all a product of our time to a degree. And that without careful thought we can all pervasive cultural messages that we might not.

D: But the and the other thing is cause people there's now research at Penn State along with University of Florida researcher that I'm involved with now the last couple months who's doing a study on bullying. And how with certain very 00:15:00with certain intervening variables, people who are the victims of bullying with intervention can actually be more predisposed to individual eight better than to stereotype others because they themselves have been the victim or experienced that so that. So we. We all get varying messages, mixed messages in our cultures and the question is how do you build on the gold and leave the crap, you know, somewhere else and. And I think that's least my story in a lot of our stories and if we colluded in some of that. As we get older we have to take we then hold a mirror up and take responsibility for it and my Antioch experience was another major leap in growth. Because I came to Antioch they called me one of the last 00:16:00of Antioch liberals or something because you the radical heart you were you know a right wing neo I mean because we had all types in the sixty's that at at. You know at Antioch. And when I was growing up in regard to music. My dad and mom were into, besides Marian Anderson whether it was Nat King Cole or the others or Louis Armstrong. There was it was a rare thing to see them on television and not to hear snickering or comments but rather appreciation because I've been in other homes that love that music but also they love the music but they don't necessarily love the people or the group. And those kinds of things. And a major musical influence on me, and this is going to be very counter-intuitive, was Elvis Presley. He was transformation who for me I feel embarrassed hearing this but I'm going to just put it out. And part of it was. I learned retroactively 00:17:00about Black musicians and gospel music from loving Elvis and trying to figure out why I loved Elvis and why everybody seemed to be afraid of him because it sounded too much like race music. And so that kind of and it's interesting that. So for that in rhythm and blues and for some my favorite artists and some of the favorite music and then I have a dear was a dear friend. Abraham Joshua Heschel marched with Martin Luther King in Selma, his daughter is a professor I believe of Princeton or Brown, of Religious Studies Susie Heschel. And one day Sunday I said Sunday evening we had dinner and I said were you. She says I was at a black Baptist church. I was speaking about types of church and and worshipping there. She said David I never felt more Jewish is when I pray at a black Baptist 00:18:00church. Because being Jewish is authentically a traditional contextual culture, emotion and spiritual uplift and questing. And what many Americans in their simulation in trying to be more American, they made it much some of them made it much more cognitive and much more ritualized. And when one hears the gospel music or spirituals depending on the period. Spirituality is something I came to through African-American music and through my work with diversity as well. So it's a whole confluence of factors that is I'm thinking you know when you're a parent and you're trying to say what do we don't do and what do we do. Well some of those don't have to do with just sitting down and sane. They you know they're not colored they're get I have a friend and she's chocolate. And the parents get 00:19:00all freaked. There's no chocolate there's no color we're all the same. Instead of like really valuing the difference. And being proud of our heritage. And hence being a vehicle for being proud of other people's differences as well.

B: So by the time you graduated high school in nineteen sixty-two.

D: Yes.

B: The world was sort of swiftly changing. There were cultural movements well under foot. Many legal pieces had passed and of course there was a lot of cultural holdouts and a lot of controversy. Socially. So by sixty-two. Let's let's just frame for a moment by the time you graduated high school. Some of the things that had kind of happened. We have in nineteen fifty-seven Little Rock school board votes to integrate schools. In the late fifty's we have here in 00:20:00Yellow Springs we have multiple African-Americans in positions of leadership which I think we were kind of early in regards to most communities. You have the freedom writers opposing segregation in sixty-one. In sixty-two you have federal troops sent by Kennedy to help James Meredith enroll for classes. There were riots. Two deaths. Hundreds of injuries. In April of sixty- three. So this is you've just graduated at this point. Do you do you want to pause? Yeah by the time you graduated, what was your vision for your life and how did you within this sort of cultural milieu, how did you make your way to Antioch College?

D: First of all we had the kitchen table conversations David they all say you have potential you're not living up to your potential. And somehow somebody 00:21:00recommended Antioch along with other colleges to more traditional colleges and. I applied and got in and didn't realize in New York it was a huge college. Everybody in particularly socialist liberal Jews all knew bought it and in Hartford Connecticut nobody hardly anybody knew about Antioch. And so this was a place where I recognized my potential and recognized, you know the opportunities. And so that was one major thing by then. I had participated. Every year we take Passover very seriously. And so I had participated in black church and synagogue because I had a rabbi was very progressive rabbi Stanley Kessler who just turned ninety. From West Hartford, Connecticut who marched with Martin Luther King as well in Selma. So the whole Jewish and biblical experience and the experience of we are all slaves in slavery was already kind of like 00:22:00integrated into my religious spiritual and political life in ways that perhaps were abnormal. Although it did mean it was successful with a took that there wasn't constant growth and comes to work they still need to do but. And then I came to Antioch. And when I came to Antioch one of the first things I volunteered to be on was on the called acre A.C.R.E. which is the Antioch committee for racial equality. And it was a more kind of a traditional, take your time, things will disappear for the fire next time by James Baldwin. And you know. Other book by Martin to the King talking about not being able we can't wait kind of issue. And I was in the cusp of the middle of that and reading them veraciously and yet taking our time in regard to being very sensitive and gentle 00:23:00to all points and. And not being too quote militant. Now is the as a person I say privileged white person I mean to be jargony and blaming people for being privileged, lots of people have privilege. But what do you do with it that is really the issue. So I remember and I'm jumping ahead here but when I first came to A.C.R.E. And I came to also helping with some of the unionization of workers in Antioch and remembering and realizing that I was believing we were doing the right thing and that we needed to do it without hurting people's feelings without being too strong and a one day. Organizing workers. Helping to support the organization of service workers in Antioch. I was talking to the men were and they were saying. Yes if this happens we have to do this and this and how do 00:24:00we block the entrances or make sure that. Because in and I said Well. But if. If the trucks. The scabs come in and they try to break the strike. Then of course you know that all we can do is lay down but we're not going to do anything. And what you mean we're not to do anything I said well you're not going to do anything to trace Nah we're going to we're going to take knives and break. You get through the tires we're going to puncture the tires. And we're going to make sure. These are the mows of our children that we're fighting for the lives of our children. And it was like a wake up call for me like it's easy for me to say you know well it will let's you know kumbaya and all that kind of stuff. But I had to understand that people came from a whole different experience or priority of values that. That I needed to recognize and respect more. And that's one of the differences between and I'm jumping ahead again between the first 00:25:00demonstration I was in at Gegner's where they refused public, the use of services to African-Americans regard to hair cuts. And the second time. When I was just going to get a hair cut from another person and before I went to my abroad program in Israel and decided to not join this militant group or were doing it and of course was sucked into it for good reasons. But it was a radical change within a year not just in my consciousness but a radical change in what was the definition of militants because the white, anti-civil right, or afraid group was really using the word militant to imply that those were the bad people. And the. You know and the other people where the nice people so Martin Luther King started off as very militant and then when when Malcolm X came all of the sudden everybody loved Martin Luther King. Because he was less dangerous opposed to leader Malcolm X.

B: So when you first came to Yellow Springs to go to Antioch College it was 00:26:00nineteen sixty-one to sixty-two, three.

D: Sixty-two I believe.

B: Just after you had graduated.

D: Yeah.

B: OK. Do you remember the community of Yellow Springs? Do you have any perceptions about how community about how the community of Yellow Springs was the same or different from the community that you came from? Any early memories of Yellow Springs? Or for that matter of the college.

D: Well the comparing to my community I had it we had a subculture in our community so I wasn't aware really of West Hartford as a culture as much as I became later on as an adult. And in Yellow Springs I had said the word townies in regard to be people our age. And then there were the college folks and there was a there was a bit of a great deal of classism that we as college students had towards the townies. But Yellow Springs was a lovely rustic community that we appreciated but I remember that there was that it almost felt-and this is 00:27:00just my opinion-it almost felt as if they were proud that Antioch was here but they tolerated what a into Antioch meant. Because those hippies those drugs those radical I don't know what it was and I experienced that in a number of ways that we may talk about in second but so. Yellow Springs was a lovely welcoming place. The Gegner piece of somebody being slapped with a one dollar fine for refusing to allow blacks to enter when we were passing the Civil Rights Act which was a public combinations law that you could then flout and then be supported locally was was just something that you know escalated into an outrage and and. And every every young person thinks they're all right and everybody else is all wrong so I apologize for having that young mindset. And I remember 00:28:00during some of those demonstrations both some yellow spring folks supporting else quietly while other Yellow Springs folks were very felt permission to be very loud and very angry and very racist around for what we were doing to their town.

B: So let's take the time to go through this as slowly and systematically as we can. So you came to Antioch in nineteen sixty-two and you were a freshman. We have the organizing that you did. Well we have you joining A.C.R.E. Do you think you joined A.C.R.E. real soon after coming to Antioch?

D: No.

B: And then you organized with with local service workers at the college, correct? Was that before or after the Public Accommodations Act in the work that you did that led to the demonstrations around the-?

D: It was before, it was both before and after and after. Because it was as late 00:29:00as the graduation in sixty-six when Dean Dawson asked me to, among others, help mediate this so we could move the strike off so that we could have the graduation. But I also understand remember it early on so it was through the four years here and there.

B: OK So what do you remember about A.C.R.E.? What was the mission of that organization? Who were your fellow classmates?

D: I remember that at that A.C.R.E. was committed to racial equality. There wasn't much more of an operational definition than that. So it was predisposed to support movements, most of them outside of the college in society. So it was interesting. I don't recall-this is just my recollection-that A.C.R.E. really had any kind of change agenda for Antioch. I mean affirmative action. You know 00:30:00there were a few isolated African-Americans some of the friends of ours but it was just very very uncritical, was not a critical mass in any way and I don't know how proactive Antioch was in those days. So it was really what was going on in the community and and then there was planning for it and I know I sat in the first year or two in some of the planning meetings of it and we were very clear about how we were going to use sitting in and being arrested if indeed that happen as a way of trying to a peacefully get other people to understand that this needed to end. And then subsequently I'm not being systematic as you properly requested. And then. After that one dollar fine was given for violating that. On after many of us were arrested and on. You know on bail. Suspended 00:31:00sentence for good behavior good behavior meant don't join any more demonstrations otherwise you'd be thrown back in jail. You know then things changed into the more significant events that I was involved with. But the interesting thing that you're reminding me just now is that A.C.R.E. was really A.C.R.E. for Antioch students to help civil rights not explicitly but it was generally in the community or in the country not at Antioch.

B: OK. So when you were an early college student, what was how often did you come into town or how did you come to realize that there were racial issues in town?

D: I think they were discussed. There were stories I never witnessed to put stories about Gegner and stories about his policies in articles in the news 00:32:00Yellow Springs media about it and then we responded by trying to do some kind of methodic piece it was mainly Antioch. We didn't reach out to a lot of the colleges particularly the the historically black colleges. At that moment it happened a year or two later. And that's how I became more indirectly. Did I ever go down the streets of Yellow Springs and and see manifestations of racism or people who acted ugly? No. Generally, any kind of negativity was really felt when folks from Yellow Springs would either come by depending upon their state of inebriation some of the younger some of us younger or older people and yell at our hippie-ness or drugs or. You know maybe. Nothing not the N. word but you know stuff about political radicals or Communists or those kinds of things. And when we would walk down there was again that much more major generation and 00:33:00style gap around people with longer hair or people who were louder or were advocates of social change whereas people here just wanted to keep the peace and make their you know money and have a good quality life for their families. And I think that culture comf was present when we would come to town.

B: Tell me about the Public Accommodations Act and how you and your A.C.R.E. companions used it.

D: Well, we OK. Well, were you and I just finished walking downtown and we just saw this is not historical present I'm actually talking right now to Brooke and and 00:34:00we finally found that Brooke was right that that because I was Tom the talking about Greensboro, North Carolina where the old Woolworth where the first one of the first sit ins was there now is historical plaque on that former Woolworth restaurant. And I was just wondering how come we don't have a plaque on the former Gegner thing as you know a testament to not anything against individuals there but you know saying that Yellow Springs was part of a national movement I mean when I was arrested along with others here. I mean Huntley Brinkley called my parents. I mean this was national news a riot in Yellow Springs was the headline. I'm not saying it was the beginning of but it was really part of a national awareness and Life magazine had a center spread about the riot in Yellow Springs. So this I think contributed to a national awareness and movement are on that, so any case I am saying to you- What is the name of that store now?

B: Twisted tines jewelry.

D: So twisted tines jewelry is is actually with the new edifice and all is where I finally found where Gegner's was and Brooke had known where it was or thought she did and. And I remember vividly as I was looking at. I just remember we were all organized. We all music was so important we sang the music anyway around guitar is it you know we shall overcome we shall not be moved. Go tell him on the mountain all those were were part of our life at Antioch but it was also a way to keep us unified to keep us pacifistic and. And to keep our eye on the prize. Sounds trite to expression now. Our eye on the prize was to test the public combinations law in its compliance for violation of it. To support. And the fellow I remember was Dave Thom- Dave Thomas. I believe is his name who was 00:36:00the only African-American. As I recall. In our first peaceful sit in at Gegner's. And and so I remember where I was sitting and I went for the haircut and he sat in the waiting room and then the I and we had all coordinated in my The idea was he. I was to get up and then Dave is next and Dave is supposed to sit in my seat. And then as he sat there I'm trying to remember it you know even more vividly than I felt it today. And there was this tension and just the all the barbers just and then the the. I'm not going to mention names but the the leader the senior person just said we're not cutting his hair I believe he used the N. word and all that and we have a right to do that it's our shop is this is America and all the stuff. And I remember the whole control over our bodies this is really thanks to Martin Luther King and this nonviolence and. We just we had 00:37:00practiced deep breathing we had practiced not getting angry any kind of fighting. We just all kind of coordinated and sat down and refused to leave while Dave embarrassingly the only African was in the chair. And not being able to get a haircut. And then the. The cops got the police came in and then one by one we were lifted up and I said lifted up they took my hand we got up, complied, walked outside and then we were given either, you know, we were told that we are under arrest for trespassing and. I don't I’m making this this last part up because I think it must have happened we must have been all taken to the courthouse because I remember at the later. More militant time. And we were all taken to the court house and I remember I was out on fifty dollars 00:38:00bond. On suspended sentence. Until this was settled. And then again it was eventually settled by them paying a one dollar fine for violating civil rights. So. And we were all singing in the process and singing on the way down and all in control and all feeling we were making a difference. And then. And I'm sorry for jumping but it's related for me because then. So I was out. I did that and it was important I did it. There was something else happening with Heschel mentioned in in West Hartford dedicating our synagogue and they were trying to get me to go to the dedication because I had another demonstration we had another demonstration planned in here and I went at the bequest. You know because suppose I had a be there for that historic moment but I missed that demonstration. I'd say six months later after the decision came down for the 00:39:00dollar fine, I was about to go to Israel, Antioch abroad. I had papers to finish. And my mother's you know we had to get I got I had to get a haircut because that was always required before you came back home. And don't get it any trouble I said fine I walked down to go to the other barber shop and I apologized on not giving credit to the other barber was who did not segregate you know or discriminate and. And as I was going down I went to get a Coke or something and right in the center of town and all of a sudden there were people barricading the doors. There were many more much more present African-Americans Wittenberg, I believe Wittenberg students had come down to join in it so the critical mass was much more African- American and and Antioch. And I was told not to get involved and then all of a sudden the state police was told by 00:40:00somebody in Yellow Springs by the local police I think that there's a riot breaking out there was no riot. It was just observants of people and they were not taking a hand and just going, they were refusing to get up, they were locked in arms, and they refused to block the doors of a number of establishments because there were so many people blocking Gegner's, the Barbershop. And so all I remember is I was safe inside that soda shop. And then all of a sudden I saw a police cars coming and I went outside. These were state police cars as I recall. And they started throwing tear gas bombs because somebody told them evidently that there's action in Yellow Springs that there's a riot. And so they helped exacerbate or start that riot by throwing tear gas. I was all now with the demonstrators outside. And somebody. One of the officers threw a tear gas bomb 00:41:00in the face of one of my girlfriends and exploded right her cheek. I grabbed it and threw it back at the police. The whole thing was a mess. And totally unplanned. And so. And so then there was such anger and I was already now part of the group. So I now. We all decided to line up and block the main thoroughfare so the cops couldn't cut in and get any more tear gas or shoot anything although they all had these big you know rifles and all that. And billy clubs. And so we must have had a rows of twenty rows on Main sixty eight. What's this road the street?

B: Route sixty-eight.

D: So I was like sixth or seventh in the row. And there's about fifteen behind me and five or six in front of me. And then the sheriff or somebody or state police. OK with a bullhorn. Everybody who was on the street is going to be 00:42:00arrested if you're here after we come for you. So we're going to go row by row and if you're still there when we come to you, you're going to be thrown in jail. And it's not going to be fifty dollars this time. So we're sitting and We Shall Overcome are saying and trying to get us. And then I'm saying to myself. OK David stay out of trouble you're going to Israel, and you can't get your passport if you're in jail. You've got to finish your you know your your forgot what the course was religion course or something and do it. And we didn't have the money at home I worked all through college and so that was also important. And so as we're getting closer to me I mean like huge crowds gathering. Both of supporters and opponents of the demonstrators and. And I among many many people got up and went to the sidewalk. As the police were coming to my row. And I remember just a few catcalls from some of my so called friends all Tulin's a 00:43:00chicken you know whatever, but anyway. I went to the side because I started thinking hey wait a minute and. And then as they got to about the eighth ninth row one of the officers grabbed that African-American. Nineteen, eighteen, seventeen, sixteen year, a high school student or young college student and started pulling her by the hair while she was being dragged she was dragged pulling by the hair on the street. Her skirt was riding up and she was screaming and crying and all I knew is I jumped out of the room, out of the out of the row, into the fray, jumped the cop. The girl was let go she ran away I was hit on the head and thrown into the paddy wagon. So that's that. Now this is all I was majoring in philosophy religion and existentialism was my thing and had a dream that previous night about a black friend of mine and me and come in into 00:44:00town. Because I knew the demonstration was the next day and then a cop. You know. In my dream. Pointing at my friend and and saying you know READY TO SHOOT HIM? And I had a choice either I was going to sacrifice my existence for my essence or I was going to sting it aside, let my friend be killed, and sacrifice my essence for my existence. And so the next day. There I was and I didn't even think about it just it happened. And we were all sent to the Xenia jail. Which still had mostly dirt with the the shackles that they used to have from the eighteen hundreds, it was quite an amazing experience. And we were all cramped into an area so we all had tear gas all around us and on our clothes and it was hard to breathe and we took turns with a little air under the door. So. So the 00:45:00end we were out on five thousand dollars bail. My parents had to mortgage the house in order to to be able to put up some of the bail and. You know and I. And so anyway. It's interesting about being a child and a parent here. So I told my roommate. Tell my parents if they call that I am on a date. Because you know. That's better than being thrown in jail, I thought, for my parents and me while my parents are getting literally got a call from Huntley Brinkley about David Tulin or foolin’ because they misspelled the T. with an F. And and. All this kinds of these kinds of issues so I'm in the jail overnight. And a lot of people are rallying and I remember we came back to Antioch after folks put up bail for us. That we came into the cafeteria. And it was like a standing ovation of the 00:46:00students in the faculty it was like an amazing relief and you know that you weren't alone and that it was you know that kind of thing. And I'm going to just jump beyond what you're thinking here. And I apologize. Many years later not many years later. I'd say in nineteen sixty seven. Right. Not many years at all. I had just gotten married. The Vietnam War was just significantly escalating. We're all worried about draft notices. It's before the lottery. And I got it, that dreaded draft notice in the mail. Went to the physical exam and passed the exam. And then the sergeant said and if there's anybody in the room who has an outstanding traffic violation or any other kind of court thing please come to see me whatever I said, he asked to see what are you hear for? Speeding ticket? And I said no I'm on five thousand dollars bail for criminal contempt of court for violating an injunction for no demonstrate. I'm sorry sir, you won't be able 00:47:00to serve in Vietnam until that's settled. And with all the guilt for all the friends who were killed in Vietnam. You know here I was in existentialism and saying how stupid and suicidal of me to do this and then, you know the Vietnam the Vietnam thing happened it was just like a weird kind of situation. So that's a little bit of the stories. What an amazing period of time you came of age in, truly. Absolutely. I remember at Passover there was a discussion and I was a young teacher in the principal's there and all these friends in a nice neighborhood in Philadelphia and his Passover slavery the whole thing. And then somebody says Well I think it's really important your civil rights for the people who are American but you know militants like Martin Luther King I mean that's just danger. And I you know just responded, my wife at the time was 00:48:00holding me down I just I said you were saying how Martin Luther King is so much better than and now you're telling me that you're calling him a militant and you know if you're Jewish you how can you be Jewish and that's been my greatest pain working with the Jewish community in my greatest, well I wouldn't say joy but commitment is really seeing that confluence of Jewish ethics and commitment and and then seeing any people having those who opt out because they prefer being in the establishment they prefer what's good for materially rather than what is their essence, you know, ethically or ideologically so anyway.

B: So what you described for us in detail was the nineteen sixty-four, March of nineteen sixty- four Gegner demonstrations that got national coverage. And that was- what number of demonstrations was that that you were personally involved in?

D: Well the one I didn't go to, the one I did go to before, the one I didn't go to that. I mean there must have been at least five more three four or five more.

B: So three to five demonstration right in Yellow Springs with the Barbershop kind of at the center of the controversy.

D: And the other major change was that A.C.R.E. and Antiochians were not organizing it and welcomed other people. Now this was clearly organized with significant numbers of and leaders from Africa from African-American student organizations in the surrounding universities with Antioch as one of the members. I think that was also a growing up experience for Antioch and. And we students around that as well.

B: So do you remember partnering with Wilberforce or Central State University?

D: Yes.

B: Do you remember names of people, professors or other students?

D: Other than Dave who I mentioned, you know, before: no. Because this- no. You know we often met. We had maybe one training experience and then we met and we just joined forces. And it was just it was chaos it was you know. And I mean I remember. I then went to Israel and there's this guy on a- on a guitar and he said let's go let's sing some songs so we're singing some songs and he's We shall overcome. And I got up and I said that's a holy song! How dare you turn it into like this fun song?! And I got up and left the room was like. These were hymns for us you know. Life and Death kinds of things so it's just amazing. You know, anyway.

B: How many college students do you think were arrested in March of sixty-four at that demonstration?

D: My guess is going to be fifty to seventy. I know makes- you know, and then I must assume there must be five hundred bystanders from Yellow Springs that were around. I'm college but. But you know citizens. Storekeepers.

B: Can you say something about the mass of people on the streets or any of the sounds that you remember?

D: I remember there was. It was like a like I'm sorry for the analogies like a football game. The cheering or the jeering depending on which side you're on. You saw who your friends were I mean I don't mean that you know theoretically I mean who your actual friends were that weren't in the demonstration which you didn't judge because you made your decision to be at harms way. But there were other people. I feel so guilty saying harm's way when people are dying today. You know. But that's beside the point. So. So it was that cacophony of sound 00:49:00that energy. And the singing and that energy. Gave many of us the courage to be. I think. Who we authentically who we were. But were often inhibited or afraid to be involved. And I think that's true. Throughout so much that's why today when we look at somebody says well thank God there are no riots after you know whether it's Iraq or whether it's Afghanistan or whether it's the election of this. And you know some people say well it's really too bad there aren't any riots I mean that there are people who just decide not to invest in group action that can make a difference. And so it really inhibits our ability to transform through change.

B: So would you say that you're proud of your actions on that day?

D: Yes. I'm proud of that and I'm proud of that. And I look at my look at my 00:50:00life just like that existential existence balance. I'm proud of it. And I'm also. You know look at it and I say what could I have done more and I'm very serious about that I mean just because you're not in college. I'm just gonna give you a real story that happened: I graduated college I was going to law school. And I. There were new people there were people I taught I tutored kids for bar mitzvah and things like that so there were some people who ran law firms and I was in college and I was told Hey David. You know we've got a place for you when you know when you're ready. You know and and so I had dollar signs I had career in law you know and all that kind of stuff. I'm sitting with my then wife in front of the T.V. And this must be nineteen sixty-seven. Sixty-seven or sixty-eight. And where there and Trinity College is in Hartford. And there was a barricade. As some of you may remember of many colleges of the administrative 00:51:00offices by by some white students and a lot of African-American students and neighboring you know and increasing Latino population over Trinity backing down from their commitment to give scholarships to to folks in North Hartford. In the poorer sections. And so they were and the cameras were there and they were yelling and screaming unison and singing unison and blocking and arm in arm. And I turned to my then wife and I said. What is the matter with these kids? And thank God I heard myself. There they were always when we were at Antioch there are always people who said oh yeah yeah yeah yeah you're an idealist you're a student your utopian but you know what as you get into the real world you'll become more sober you'll understand that change isn't that easy and you know 00:52:00that and. And so now the law school and the opportunities and all this. And all of a sudden I hear David say. What is the problem with these kids anyway and I realized who's saying that what is happening to my essence to who I am? Is it just because now I have a vested interest in stability meaning short term stability for me that these people are too loud and they're not dressed right and and. And it was a radical moment for me a very- I'm using this word too much but a transformational moment for me to recognize. And I'm going to use the word even though I know it's not the right word to use: radicalize. The only way I can stay on focus about who I am and what needs to be done is to regularly radicalize myself. Re-radicalize which really means getting back in touch with the authentic: who David is and aspires to be and what my values are as opposed 00:53:00to you know the principles as opposed to the existential needs. I've been wealthy and I've been poor and I've been middle class and all that stuff. And you still need to stay David and one of the things that I learned and I think is Al Denton's existentialism class at Antioch. I don't if he... He made it out... I don't know who made it out but it was from that class. It's like you live and you live to twenty and at twenty you say well OK I'm ready to go to college I really gotta look for graduate school. It's all right now I can't get anything on my record because I can't be sure of and like this record for me for going to law school you know who the heck don't. OK. And you say you know. Yes but David you really believe it. Yeah I know but just in just until they get to graduate school just until I graduate graduate just until I get to get a pretty good position. Just until I get the house because I have a lot of kids. Well the kids are invested I'll wait. And then all those you turn around eighty years old you 00:54:00say. Where am I? What happened to who I'm supposed to be? And so it's. It's that you see in the context of the civil rights issue. I remember Al Denton visiting me at jail in jail. And talking about that choice I had when that young lady was being pulled by the hair in the street. And I had two choices and luckily I didn't even think I made a conscious choice. Because it was against my short range interests. To proper a potentially put my year abroad at risk and all this other kind of stuff. And that's what. You know is so powerful and beautiful about this this period. And about what we live every day and try to do every day.

B: So you had this transformational moment and you felt yourself perhaps diverging from your own path.

D: Selling out.

B: What did you do at that point?

D: I became head of the Bobby Kennedy president campaign about a month later I 00:55:00was in law school at the time. And I just said I got to become more active. And so I I became active in many ways. In graduate school. Then. And in the anti-war movement. And I was never excuse the expression, I'm using it differently, a radical. I was always somebody who is like very patriotic and still am and the American flag means something to me and it could be misused by many people. And I but I also believe America is is really about perfecting who we're supposed to be and including folks otherwise it's not who are we hurting who are women or people of color or others who are targeted. It's how we are devastating ourselves by engaging in that kind of behavior or colluding in it. And I think. You know a law firm. I do a lot of work on diversity inclusion for twenty five years for Fortune five hundred companies for groups overseas in the you know 00:56:00around the world. And and a law firm major law firm nationally. I did workshop for all the partners and associates on diversity and inclusion issues, and then the senior partners said to me so David could you write up maybe a ten page paper for us on what we need to do to be more inclusive, respectful, have more representation? And I said you know, instead of a ten page paper, here's what I would say: Every partner who happened to every one of the most was a white male every as long as every partner here commits to speaking up and intervening in behavior that has the impact of being sexist or races or exclusionary, you have transformed your your organization. So as to people who have the belief system don't act on it have power who can transform. And that's really one of my lessons.

B: So no bystanders?

D: Right. And we need to be up standers and not bystanders.

B: So after a lifetime's you know involvement and tolerance and intolerance and diversity and exclusion and inclusion, where do you- how do you describe where we are at today? How do you think about Philadelphia where you live? How do you think about Antioch College as an institution? How do you think about public schools today? I mean how do we look at the world around us where so many issues are still present but perhaps they present differently, what do you see the biggest work before us?

D: I don't know how helpful I'm going to be on this because it's very painful and frustrating and confusing for me. I will start with the easiest one. Because this is my visit back for the first time since I graduated Antioch. I just see 00:58:00that every person I bump into or I talk to every student. Take seriously the commitment to learn in order to do. The commitment to create an honor system and interdependency in a caring, outside of the campus community and outside of their personal life by looking for co-op jobs and looking for careers that fulfill them because that's who they are because they selected Antioch. But then Antioch and the experience is giving them the ability to actually be able to do that I'm not saying it's just depended on Antioch. And and you know there's some hope in regard to the millennial group outside of Antioch. The you know that the. The folks who this just a piece of research that was published just a 00:59:00couple days ago about a survey research about millennials and how and certainly the is the economic the recession helped this by by meaning you know by making people more sober about how high they can go into hedge funds and how much millions how many millions of dollars they can make a snap of the snap of fingers. More and more people when identified or reflecting or responding the surveys say the most important thing for me is to do something that has meaning that has meaning. And I just think that's a very hopeful thing. And I think however they came to a cause I don't care about people's motivations it's not fair to judge people and psychologize them, but if somebody is saying I need to do something that gives me meaning that is consistent with my values, that gives me intrinsic motivation rather than just extrinsic motivation, that that can then salvage this country, I'm not saying change it, salvage it because this is 01:00:00the first time since the nineteen twenties when we've had such a radical gap between those who are Democratic and those who have the money and now can be seen as a corporation of voting. You know of having a say in an electoral politics. So it really is so important for folks to begin to say Yeah I see how money can be made and I see that I can only do it if my kids have a purpose in their life because they see me as a mom or dad doing that and and. If we can create a society where we don't have to worry about people outside the margins because we have included people inside the margins.

B: You mentioned at a couple points during our conversation different studies that have come out today. It's 01:01:00kind of an off the cuff question but do you have other examples of either research that has come out in the last maybe ten years combining intercultural studies with neuroscience that chart how we perceive difference? How we can overcome it?

D: It's some wonderful question because I. There's a. I'm trying to think if it was in anthropology or zoology, I think it was from zoology, and it's this quote that I used to save around and I can't quote it because it's too long of a quote. But it really really is almost like the global warming thing which people are so busy denying and backlashing against maybe that means that it's going to be start happening and people are paying attention to it. But what was necessary for our survival. Who's an insider. Who's an outsider. Who's the other. And who's us. Tribal boundaries. Kill or be killed. All that was evidently necessary during our tribal times. And now, what was the survival 01:02:00necessity is now a suicidal probability. Because it no longer matches what we need as a civilization and what threats are. So how do I define the other? As a as a person who doesn't respect women. The other. As somebody who is an abuser. Other is somebody who steals or lies or attempts to get over and exploit people. And leaving them homeless or whatever. Those are the others. It's the norm the new definition of normal deviant. The new norm is everybody who sees us as a community and interdependent. And the new deviant is people who say it's all up to me and if other people don't have it, it's their problem and it's their fault. So I'm I mean I'm hopeful spiritually about it. How do you do this. 01:03:00Politically I think part of it is the media part of it is us believing in our communal power and spreading that message rather than avoiding the ability to talk to people who we think are enemies, now I'm just gonna say one thing about this with my diversity inclusion stuff. Let's take white men. I I would. I was I taught Philadelphia police officers for many years. And I would go into the police academy for example. And I would deal with diversity inclusion issues and sexual orientation and different cultures and how to deal with communities not just with other officers in recruitment. And I would be so drained and so exhausted. And that's because I would come in and, besides the standing up in the applause each time I didn't because of the ritual, I would just find it's 01:04:00like pulling teeth. And it was so painful and so exhausting for me and then I realized part of it's my responsibility all I can change is myself. And Lincoln's phrase. Treat people by the based on the better angels of their nature. So I have to treat whoever I'm engaging with including an adversary. Treating them and talking to the angels within them rather than the devil or the the you know the evil that is easy for me to notice. Or the lack that's easy for me to notice. So it's kind of like abundance rather than deficit model. How do I see somebody who's a resistor, resistor to change-and this goes for Congress as well-how do I treat them based upon the better angels of the nature. So with the police officers, it was a survival thing for me. I wasn't doing well because of how much time and effort it was taking. And it. And it was a boxing match 01:05:00between me and some of the the police. So I went in and. I just got a mindset to say these people are hungry to be freed from the shackles of their acculturation that they have no fault in having been in place. And my job is to support them and any reaction that they have is because they're questing for something and they don't and they need support for that. And when I started and then I just models that in my work with organizations and corporations, I need to treat the people in power who are still disproportionately white Anglo men and treat them as though they are hungry for this stuff but are taught that you should avoid it or fight it. They don't own their parents or the media or their teachers. They all they can own is what they do now. And all I can do is support them. So when I do that with the cops, and when I'd love to do that with adults, turn it 01:06:00around so that I can frame that and treat them as if they're respectful, they're worthy of honor and their they owe themselves more than running lockstep with how they were when they were fifteen, twenty, twenty five, thirty. And thankfully some of these people now have kids who are challenging them, spouses who are are doing this so I just remember like the Coca-Cola company I went in and the guy who was the first one to say yes you can do it from my department and it was the finance department it wasn't like H.R. and and this is a white man who felt this certain way all his life, and he went through a divorce and he went through a death of a child, and he looked in went to spiritual retreats, and all of a sudden he said I need to find a better way. I deserve it and there needs to be meaning for me my life. And those are the people who could be transformational and if we stopped looking for them and celebrating them because 01:07:00they don't look like they're the transformational change agents that we can be less effective as transformational change agents. Ladies and gentlemen she's nodding her head.

B: That was a lovely statement on how things are and ought to be in how we can continue to do this work. Are there other things that we haven't talked about that you would like to touch on?

D: I’ll give you time for you to think, cause I'm trying to think oh I just feel. I mean after this, you know, interview, like anything else I need to be affected by the interview. Right? Because anybody who is a teacher and not a learner is like not fulfilling who we really are. So every intervention every moment or opportunity you have every time there was this. We also beat ourselves 01:08:00up to the point where we where many of us and our kids don't believe we can make a difference. And so I get into that too. You know like I was invited by the Obama administration to come and get involved with certain kinds of things and I was busy making a living on this diversity stuff I never got a chance to do it because I have to raise my son and a granddaughter. And then. You know you. And so I called up there was an article in the newspaper about this bullying thing about this research. I just picked up the phone or sent an e-mail. Thought researched, the e-mail, sent it there. And now I'm working with the research project. It's like you know the old days it was for calls to get to the president. I mean every one of us has this amazing power. But sometimes it's not that we're not committed, it's that we don't believe we can make a difference because they, excuse me for saying it, but the quote they love that. Because they make a difference and so if I make a difference then their percentage of 01:09:00power is lessoned. So we have to continue to believe that that we individually and as a group can make a heck of a lot of difference.

B: I believe that.

D: And we got to do it with joy. We got to have joy and humor what's Emma Goldman, right? Any revolution that where I can't dance, I don't want to be part of it. We have to have joy rather than depression, instead of sitting in frustration we have to, you know, have joy and hope.

B: Thank you David Tulin for this interview.