Dale Bertsch

Partial Transcript: We'll ask you to say your name and spell it.

Segment Synopsis: Dale introduces himself and states his former titles of executive director at the Miami Valley Regional Planning Commission (MVRPC) and professor at the Ohio State University.

Keywords: Dale Bertsch; MVRPC; the Ohio State University

Partial Transcript: The first question that you asked was related to what were some of the initial local hurdles to implementation.

Segment Synopsis: Dale talks about the struggles faced by the MVRPC in affecting policy, specifically because of the historically held opinions regarding low and moderate income housing. He speaks to the opposition from suburbs, which was based in misconception about the impacts of these types of housing on communities, but also the support from certain suburban officials who saw the plan as an opportunity to limit low income housing through policy. He goes on to discuss the objections from planners themselves, because of the major shift in the role of planning. He then delves into the mixed responses from Black officials, many of whom supported the plan because of the opportunities it allowed, but others rejected the plan as an attempt to separate and stifle Black communities. He also talks about the varying positions that HUD took to the program, depending on the directors of the department at the time as well as the presidential administration.

Keywords: CJ McLin; Carla Hills; Dixie suburbs; George Romney; Gerald Ford; James Carter; Jesse Jackson; Jim Fain; MVRPC; National Committee Against Discrimination in Housing; Thurgood Marshall; implementation; inventories; land use; local autonomy; misconceptions

Subjects: City planning; Discrimination in housing; Land use; Race relations; Zoning law

Partial Transcript: Then going to the second question, what was MVRPC's reliance on FHA for implementing the 235/236?

Segment Synopsis: Dale says that originally the FHA was opposed to the plan, but they were swayed by the federal government to change their position, and the director of the Cincinnati FHA office was replaced. He goes on to talk about A-95 review, which allowed agencies and regionalism to take a strong role in the housing plans. And while the federal government backed away from regionalism over time, he says, the state of Ohio continued to support the concept. He also says that around this time was when HUD began to require regional housing strategies.
Dale then begins to speak about the success of the plan. He discusses the recognition the plan received nationally, particularly in recent years. He says that this concept increased popularity for regional inter-jurisdiction solutions, while national programs have also arisen that steer away from regionalism.

Keywords: Cincinnati; David Sweet; Federal Housing Administration (FHA); George Romney; HUD; Jack Gilligan; MVRPC; Sam Jackson

Subjects: Federal government; Jurisdiction; Regionalism

Partial Transcript: What roles did 701 and A-95 review play?

Segment Synopsis: Dale says that the A-95 review gave regional agencies influence in the housing process. However, he says, the A-95 review was weakened over time in housing projects, and this was supported by local officials. He goes on to say that in the late 1970's with the turnover of directors at MVRPC, housing became less of a focus for the agency. He also states that the support for regional housing plans was diminished and was replaced with support for local programs, and funds were geared toward local solutions.

Keywords: 701; A-95; Congress

Subjects: Housing; Local officials and employees

Partial Transcript: Was the plan a success?

Segment Synopsis: Dale discusses the various successes of the plan. First, he refers to the access given to people with low incomes for higher quality housing, as well as access to housing in the communities where they worked, which may not have otherwise been available. He says that this was an important success because of the suburbanization of jobs which was occurring, and because in this way housing could follow the trend. However, he also recognizes the barriers to success that were created because the plan was not able to be fully implemented. He does say that many recommendations made by the Dayton Plan had success in communities that implemented them. He described how there was initially strong support for the concept, but with turnover in various agencies, this was diminished. He states that over all, the plan had a greater impact nationally and in other regions than it did in the Miami Valley region.

Keywords: Dayton Plan; Low-income housing; State Housing Finance Agencies; education

Subjects: Job creation; Low-income housing; Suburbs

Partial Transcript: The area-wide housing opportunity plans that HUD came to sponsor through section 8, I believe MVRPC was awarded one of those packages?

Segment Synopsis: Dale comments on the successes of MVRPC as they related to the political relationships that were held between the MVRPC and the US Department of Housing and Urban Development. He goes on to discuss the decline of support for the MVRPC by the federal government, HUD, and local officials and planners, although HUD continued to provide more low profile support via area-wide housing opportunity plans, and the then-governor of Ohio John Gilligan, and David Sweet, then-development director, attempted to establish policy around regions. He says that this decline continued until 1981, when Reagan dismantled many of the programs that had allowed for regional housing plans.

Keywords: 701; Abe Ribicoff; Carla Hills; David Sweet; Detroit; Fair Share Housing plans; George Romney; Gerald Ford; HUD; James Lind; John Gilligan; Larry Houston; Miami Valley; National League of Cities; OMB; Richard Nixon; Ronald Reagan; Section 8; US Department of Commerce; US Department of transportation; area-wide housing opportunity plan; planners; region; regional agencies; regional assistance grants; relationships

Subjects: Regional planning; Regionalism

Partial Transcript: Dayton remains one of the most segregated metros in terms of race. How do you think about that?

Segment Synopsis: Dale states that racial integration was not an intention of the Dayton Plan. He says that while the MVRPC knew that there may be racial implications of Fair Share housing, but that it was not an initial part of the plan. He goes on to talk about former Dayton mayor James Mcgee's changing opinion on the MVRPC. Dale cites his departure as part of this change, as there were various adjustments to MVRPC voting structure which minimized the power of the city of Dayton under Norah Lake's leadership.

Keywords: Dayton; Fair Share Housing; James McGee; MVRPC; Race; Townships; integration; voting structure

Subjects: Mayors; Race relations; Social integration; Voting

Partial Transcript: I can't imagine this is anything compared to a Congressional hearing!

Segment Synopsis: Dale talks about the success of the plan as it was used in court proceedings. He says that the Dayton plan was cited in various court cases as an example of what could be implemented, and he cites this as leading to the success of the Fair Share housing concept.

Keywords: Court Proceedings; Dayton Plan; Gautreaux; Mt. Laurel

Subjects: Courts--United States--Cases

Partial Transcript: He created the wording for A-95.

Segment Synopsis: Dale discusses how Bruce Busset drafted the A-95 review process, and how he, as director of MVRPC, was able to view the document prior to its public release.

Keywords: A-95; HUD; MVRPC

Partial Transcript: You all, MVRPC was already planning and was already in contact with HUD by 1969?

Segment Synopsis: Dale discusses the development of ties between MVRPC and HUD during the writing of the Dayton Plan. He says that originally there was minimal support from HUD, but that once the plan began to be publicized by the New York Times and Sixty Minutes, HUD and MVRPC began to establish a relationship, and MVRPC gained a lot of support after that time.

Keywords: Board of Realtors; Dayton; Dayton Plan; HUD; MVRPC; New York Times; Sixty Minutes; Washington, DC

Subjects: Grants-in-aid; Press coverage

Partial Transcript: How did you develop these connections in Washington?

Segment Synopsis: Dale cites his aptitude for social and political connection-making as a way that he developed support, both political and financial, for MVRPC. He says that he knew many Washington officials in earlier years prior to their rise to power, and that when they developed more prestige, he was able to call on them for support. He also says that he was able to forge these relationships because of the strong staff that he had at the MVRPC.

Keywords: OMB; Washington, DC; budget; bureaucracy; connections; fundraising; policy

Subjects: Budget; Bureaucracy

Partial Transcript: What time did you start throwing around this idea of the fair share housing, and how long had you been formulating the strategy?

Segment Synopsis: Dale talks about the timeline of creating the Dayton Plan. He says that what incited the pressure to develop the plan were certain tipping points of the Civil Rights Movement, including the assassinations of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Robert Kennedy. He discusses the fear that was instilled among Miami Valley officials who worried about riots in the Dayton area, and that this was when housing reform arose as a solution. He also brings up the changing name of the plan, which was originally called a "dispersal" plan, and it was due to a New York Times article that the "Fair Share" concept was coined.

Keywords: Civil Rights Movement; Dayton plan; Dispersal plan; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Fair Share; Housing reform; Mayors; Miami Valley; New York Times; Robert Kennedy; affordable housing

Subjects: Local officials and employees; Low-income housing; Press coverage

Partial Transcript: Be that time, was there a large move toward suburbanization of actual jobs within Dayton?

Segment Synopsis: Dale cites various causes of the suburbanization of jobs in Dayton. He talks about the desegregation plans, and the opposition to this from the white Daytonian community, many of whom flocked to suburbs, and also blocked the creation of commuter bussing systems. This he says, coupled with the unionization and subsequent suburbanization of of many Dayton industries and their workers led to the mass movement of Dayton jobs to the suburbs of the city. He also states that around this time, many of the leaders of these industries were retiring, and that they were being replaced with people he refers to as "short term" leaders, who were not committed to the success of the businesses in Dayton.

Keywords: Dayton; National Cash Register; White Flight; commute; desegregation; public transport; suburbanization; unions

Subjects: Industries; Labor unions--Organizing; Suburbs; Transportation

Partial Transcript: These up-start presidents who take over after the "home-grown" people retire, when did that happen?

Segment Synopsis: Dale talks about the turnover of long-time corporation presidents in local Dayton businesses to leaders he called "short-term" leaders. He says this began to happen in the late 1960's. He then speaks about his relationships with these strong local business leaders prior to their retirement. He says he had personal relationships with presidents of these companies, and was able to sway policy through them.

Keywords: progressive, "home-grown" industry, retirement

Subjects: Bureaucracy; Government policy

Partial Transcript: Do you think Dayton's relative size helped?

Segment Synopsis: Dale discusses the reputation of Dayton as a professional city, and how this assisted him in developing relationships with industry leaders. He cites the fact that Dayton had a level of respect for city management as a profession, and says that he viewed himself as a regional manager. He goes on to talk about how the MVRPC went about gaining power in the area as a new organization, which he says they did by developing new concepts and ideas, rather than fighting the status quo that already existed there.

Keywords: Professionalism; concepts; regional manager

Subjects: City managers

Partial Transcript: The old zoning over-ride proviso - was that intentional?

Segment Synopsis: Dale describes the plan created by the MVRPC to add certain items to the plan which they presented to the commission that were placed intentionally to be rejected. He says that this was done in order to get the plan approved by the commission without allowing the commission to seem as though they were merely figureheads.

Keywords: Commission; expendables; zoning override

Subjects: Bureaucracy; Zoning

Partial Transcript: I'm sure you're aware that there were mayors in suburban communities within Dayton that strongly approved the plan.

Segment Synopsis: Dale makes mention of mayors in the Dayton area who supported the Dayton Plan. he gives the example of the mayor of Trotwood who wanted to use the plan to control the amount of affordable housing that was being constructed in his district.

Keywords: Trotwood; mayor; subsidized housing; suburb

Subjects: Housing Subsidies; Mayors; Suburbs

Partial Transcript: By working with the home-builders and the realtors, we gave them what we called "targets of opportunity."

Segment Synopsis: Dale talks about building relationships with developers and realtors who were involved in the construction of units, and giving them support in return for building projects where the MVRPC wanted them to be.

Keywords: Developers; Don Huber; MVRPC; National Democratic Committee; Realtors

Partial Transcript: I'm not sure that there was a lot of strong support among nation suburbs.

Segment Synopsis: Dale discusses how the passage of the A-95 review process helped gain support among suburbs for the Fair Housing Act of 1968.

Keywords: A-95; Fair Housing Act of 1968; Municipalities; Suburbs

Partial Transcript: You're aware too, I assume that HUD did flag MVRPC's plan as one of the Bicentennial accomplishments?

Segment Synopsis: Dale states that the MVRPC plan received recognition by HUD as a Bicentennial accomplishment, as well as being in the top twenty planning concepts in the twentieth century.

Keywords: Bicentennial; HUD; MVRPC; planning

Partial Transcript: Of course I'm from Akron.

Segment Synopsis: Dale and Eric, the interviewer discuss personal histories and conclude the interview.

Keywords: Akron; Columbus; Cuyahoga Falls; Kettering; the Ohio State University