Kristine Herman SOPP Oral History Interview

ISABELLE JUNIPER

So, this is Isabelle Juniper recording Kristine Herman on October 27th, on the SOPP oral history project. So to begin with, tell me about your early life and what brought you to Antioch.

KRISTINE HERMAN

That's a great question. Well, I'm originally from Wisconsin. I came from a long line of teenage parents and I just knew I wanted to leave home at an early age and a friend of mine was doing a college trip with her parents to Antioch and they knew the then president Al Guskin and I just hopped in the backseat of their car and went on this road trip with them from Wisconsin to Ohio, to see 00:01:00this college that my friend did not end up going to. But I remember going, oh my God, this is exactly where I need to be. Like, this is where I see myself. So, you know, I landed there in 1990. I was 17 years old when I entered my first year of Antioch, and it was just 100% aligned with who I was and where I needed to be spending my college years. It was could not have been a more perfect union for me.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

That sounds really cool. That seems to be the case among a lot of people I've interviewed. Do you remember any kind of conversations around consent before the SOPP? Or like what campus life was like in in that respect?

KRISTINE HERMAN

So I arrived in the fall of 1990, which was an explosive time. So when I arrived initially, definitely not, you know, the first month or whatever. It was first 00:02:00year of college, first year away from home, you know, roommate dorm life, div dance, you know the whole new scene. And so it really was the events of that fall that brought the issue of consent to the forefront. And I think it was early. I mean, it might have been, I don't know, October or something of 1990. My dates might be messed up. It was 30 years ago. But I do feel like all of a sudden there was this, you know, sort of two decisive moments in that possibly, that fall, that sort of brought everything up for everyone in terms of having a conversation about, you know, I wouldn't say at the time we called it a conversation about consent. I think at the time we called it a conversation about rape, but you can't have a conversation about rape and sexual assault 00:03:00without figuring out where kind of, who has responsibility for that. So at the time station was really about rape on campus. And that was very heavy and emotionally-charged certain, addition to that fall, especially I think for the women who were older than me and were deeply embedded in there in those moments, circumstances. And also I think at a different place in their critical thinking and their maturation, so they were a few years ahead of me and said they were really able to sort of take these incidents and harness. The sort of bad things to try to create a cultural conversation on campus that was like, urgent, you 00:04:00know, really there was a sense of urgency. So consent really wasn't the the way it was framed. I believe. Anyways, in those early months of 1990, fall 1990 into the spring of 91. It was about rape. Those were conversation about rape.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

And so you mentioned that there were sort of two events that really changed that. What were they?

KRISTINE HERMAN

Oh my gosh, I am- these were not women who I was friends with they were older than me and I think or heard what happened in those instances is third hand and probably relatively inaccurate or gossipy. But I believe that they were, you know, two women who experienced a sexual assault that it is possible, the other 00:05:00person- the the person who committed the assault did not believe or understand that they were perpetrating a violation. I think that my understanding was that- God, I hope I'm not being inaccurate here. But was that the response from the administration faced with it that was well this person didn't know that you weren't consenting. They didn't understand, you know. I don't know if alcohol was was an excuse by the administration. But my understanding was that there was just an unacceptable response from the campus administration at that time that caused sort of emergency response kind of community organizing around an unacceptable response. That response being like just don't take classes with 00:06:00that person- change, or maybe alternate and don't be on campus at the same time as that other person. And really a feeling of not being supported by the administration, by the survivors of those, those assaults at a level I really want to say at least one of them, I think, perhaps or derailing their academic trajectory possibly.

KRISTINE HERMAN

But again these were not friends of mine, I was a first year. In fact that first six months, I was really naïve and I think I was really conflicted and confused. And sort of like well, you know, like really not evolved and how I was for a first time to having to articulate a position and really, frankly, I was struggling with it those early months. And so hearing about the failed responses by the admin seeing that they were these meetings, having emergency meetings. 00:07:00They were amazingly powerful. Action in community meetings, you know, really powerful organized demonstrations of like this is something that you have to pay attention to.

KRISTINE HERMAN

Before there were these sort of that builds up of the list, you know, it stopped being about the details of what happened to an individual person and or persons, but in more about like what is an appropriate response here and what do we want to expect and require from like a government? You know, if I were to come to you and say I was violated, what do I do? What should I be able to expect as a student on this campus? So it really became bigger very quickly and not really that divisive in the beginning, I think divisiveness happened the same time the 00:08:00media attention happened. But in the early moments, it was more like a really profound kind of rapid- down like, you know, downhill snowball accumulation of like harnessing horrible experiences to change in a systemic sort of way. So that it doesn't happen a third time, that a third person doesn't have to think about, you know, when they're on campus, where to cross campus, what classes to take how to avoid seeing a perpetrator, those kinds of things.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

And so when you said there was a lot of organizing and talk about the demands. Were you involved in any of that?

KRISTINE HERMAN

Oh, I wouldn't say I was involved as an organizer. I was involved as a participant in several different ways including in ways I'm not proud of. I think in the very earliest times, there was a community forum organized that was 00:09:00trying to present like, sort of multiple opinions around across the spectrum of of issues of. I don't even think it was still framed as consent. I really don't think we got- we understood we were talking about as well in the beginning. I think it was framed differently. And at that earliest moment, I think I was invited to speak from sort of through my perspective, from my lens as like a, maybe it was like a first-year woman. Who was not, you know, I think directly involved in any of those organizing efforts and really not seeing where I wanted this train to head, and what my analysis of it was pretty naïve and and almost embarrassing. I would say and that first participative patient where I was, you know, in a community forum as like, one of many speakers where now, you know, I vehemently disagree with anything I said at that time, you know.

KRISTINE HERMAN

Which is the very beginning stages of my growth in that department. And then I think as time went by I got more actively involved, but I was never one of the leaders. I think the leaders and organizers of I think the most important change making action were people older than me, they were people who were third and 00:11:00fourth years in 1990 and 91 and I was still figuring out in 1990 and 91 what my opinion was. You know what my analysis of the issues were, and what I thought was sort of just and necessary for safety, and for equality, for all people, and at the time, I was not in the early year, that first year. I attended. I supported. I participated.

KRISTINE HERMAN

But that movement was led by women who were older and probably more directly impacted negatively by the events that happened and also by, you know, bearing all the weight of that of making that movement happen inside the school from, you know, from 90 to 91. They really shouldered that burden and paid for it with, you know, missing friends, you know, like real, you know, missing classes and and it was profound. I mean, it was, you know, life-altering, I think for many people. Definitely, it was impactful and life-altering for me. When I saw what went on there. And I saw what they were doing. And where, where this was going. You know, it completely changed my life.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

I did want to ask well, April Wolford said you were involved with the community meeting demonstration. You were one of the women in black. Do you remember that at all?

KRISTINE HERMAN

I do remember that. I mean again, I was still following a little bit there. I 00:12:00didn't really feel like I grew into any sort of leadership until my third and fourth year when the SOP at the time I did that, I don't know if we had two p's at the time of the SOP all of a sudden got its big 15 minutes of fame and then I was a little bit more rounded out and understanding myself in a leadership capacity. But at that time, I was again following real (inaudible) and I remember, you know, the women in black. We were all dressed in black and there was like the I don't know if it was every three minutes. I don't know if at that time it was every 6 minutes or...

KRISTINE HERMAN

The duct tape, you know, if she's talking about that, that action and there were several actions, but there was this one where it was the community, one of the community meetings and it was just- you heard the duct tape being ripped across the, you know, as you know, you unroll duct tape, you hear (imitates duct tape 00:13:00being ripped), and it was like then put on a woman and then 'raped' written across in Sharpie and there was another woman in black and you're just standing there. You're all standing lining the, you know, room of the community meeting kind of just really silent other than the sound of sharpies and duct tape as this meeting is trying to take place over the course of an hour. But of course, every I don't know if it was every three minutes, every six minutes. I can't remember. Just the power of like seeing the visual, you know, like the when you see, you know, a hundred women wearing handmaid's tale, you know, garb or something like where you're like the visual impact of like a, you know, like it's morose.

KRISTINE HERMAN

Say anything and so I vaguely remember that but again, I was I was a participant. I was following. I thought they were such, you know, smarter women than me kind of helping carry these initial, you know, pay attention to this, you know. Pay attention, like you have an agenda well to the fuck bad like I, 00:14:00you know, make this on your agenda. Like they were really, you know, teaching me and many of us in that moment how to be a be a presence that will not be ignored. And so I was really, I mean, I went to maybe some of the women's center meetings so I could be part of that movement. But the organizers I mean they were, they were third and fourth years. They were badasses, people were like, you know, this happened to my best friend. This happened to me this happened, and, you know, and really willing to like kind of drop everything and put the fliers up and get the get the folks to participate in chime in, and I was just, you know, it was right place right time for me. I was really going through my own process.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

So when would you say you became much more directly involved. You said your 00:15:00third and fourth years, you did?

KRISTINE HERMAN

I mean it was a process the entire time. I would say by the end of that first year. I had probably changed from the beginning. So then going into, you know, 92 93 and then definitely '93, '94, you know, as I was then an RA, you know, as I was in charge of an entire building of hall advisors. As I was surrounded by, you know, really truly actually surrounded by people who were experiencing assaults and a couple people, or at least one person in particular who was accused of one under the sort of newly evolving process of trying to figure out how to be responsive. Under the organically changing list of demands that was 00:16:00being, you know, becoming an SOP. It was becoming the SOP that hadn't yet gotten like board approval, you know, all of the moments along the way. You know, a guy I went to school with I feel like that's those like his experience and others where it became about consent where became about like, like can we rely on our interpretation of other people's body language? And for that person the answer was one 'no', they should not have relied on body language. And rather than expressly getting verbal affirmative consent. So I think it was in those, you know, my third year into my fourth. Third, especially where affirmative consent 00:17:00was starting to really solidify as like, what does that mean? And you know in third year and fourth year became, you know, the same time that the entire concept exploded in the media after we'd already been starting to have these orientations and already started having these internal conversations without media attention about what do we mean by, you know, ongoing in affirmative consent? What do we mean by every level along the way of a sexual interaction? What does that actually mean? And if you were a hall advisor you already knew you were having to do, you know, talk. So you already knew you were supposed to do banana demonstrations, right? So the idea of integrating another training like module around consent was really not that big of a deal or shouldn't have been and wasn't. I think for like this middle year where it didn't feel very controversial on campus and then it became controversial again, when there was a national spotlight put on it. But I think that my participation really started 00:18:00to grow in it as we started to gel as a community people who really led the charge ended up leaving, right? They either graduated or dropped out or they were in their fourth year. So by the time I was in my third year, like those student leaders were no longer there. And we were starting to really kind of coalesce around this thing called the SOP, and this requirement by the community, the school community. The student community. Do better than society at large and that we demand better from our administration to have a set of standards for our community and a better set of responses than we would perhaps out of our community. And it was, you know, it was organic. I mean it was major.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

So when you were, when you mentioned that, like the shaping of affirmative 00:19:00consent, do you remember what that was like? Or could you describe like sort of how it came to be.

KRISTINE HERMAN

I mean, it's funny because how it came to be, I remember it being not, like, a totally ludicrous idea until other people outside the community started chiming in. So it seemed to not be even that controversial to propose affirmative ongoing consent throughout an interaction at any escalation. It wasn't like anybody dissected that and said like this is you know, cold and formulaic and there was no- it really didn't feel, the internal debate. Later, when there was, 00:20:00you know, when there were jokes on SNL about it and I remember, you know, the Shannon Doherty skit aside. I remember being on a radio show, my third or fourth year defending the SOP concept and all of the stuff about affirmative consent in it. And I distinctly remember, being sort of at war with Dr. Ruth who everybody knew in the in the, you know, 80's 90's and I mean, you know, was like the sex therapist, the only famous like sex therapist is Dr. Ruth, right and she made this comment on radio, like if men ask for consent...(inaudible).

KRISTINE HERMAN

And I remember like it was really epiphanous. To realize we were worried about like men's ability to stay excited if they have to verbally, like verbalize it, 00:21:00you know. A lot of moments that were sort of epiphanous like that when you know, outside folks. Like I remember having some experiences on radio and TV with Katie Rophie, who is sort of viewed as this like new-wave feminists back in the 90s and her version was like, you know, this is just what should be classified as bad sex. Like the whole concept of date rape is really just regret for bad sex and bad decision-making on the part of women. And it was sort of this like major mindfuck that, like, it was these external voices, major kind of figures made the idea seem, when it was never internally, really, viewed as like a proposal. It was these outside folks that were like, like I remember there was a 00:22:00talk show that I was on in 94 or something like that. And there was, they filled the audience with fraternity brothers and one guy got up and said, if I have to ask for what I want, I won't get it. And it was like, oh my God, herein lies the point, right?

KRISTINE HERMAN

Like, here you are proving in front of the world why it's so necessary. But it's almost like the world wasn't ready to have that conversation. They can't get the joke. Like, you know, I mean like and he were he was saying a truth. He was like speaking his truth man, and it was like, yeah. You know?

KRISTINE HERMAN

And so I don't remember affirmative consent inside of 1992 92 being this like, parsed out perfectly analyzed like dissected definition. It seemed so totally reasonable for me, anyways. It seemed like it was not a controversy until other 00:23:00people started saying it was crazy to ask for it. And then it was like, what? And they were so worried about it removing the moment and the romance and I mean, everybody forgot that everyone had to decide how to negotiate condoms because of HIV. And that was like, you know, like changing the dynamic in an encounter to stay safe. So, why were we so afraid to stay safe verbally? And this people had just totally forgotten about that. And then like know it's all about the silent, you know, pressure or something. So I don't know. It's maybe other people have a different memory, but I don't remember the internal decision-making around how to define consent in the early years being a thing. Later, we had to explain it and figure out how to demonstrate and explain and you know, we performed like skits on- I mean like you really had to sort of see what that could look like, and it not be a bad thing. But it didn't seem like 00:24:00that was an internal problem until the rest of the society decided, it was.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

That seems to be the reaction for most of the women I've talked to. They've said that mostly everyone at Antioch was very, you know, was very much on board with this or if they you know, they had reservations like they didn't outwardly speak them for like a very variety of other reasons. Would you also agree with that?

KRISTINE HERMAN

For sure, for sure. This was a community that came together on this issue, for the most part, and definitely, once you know, once the really kind of challenging first year of it was behind us. I feel like it didn't feel like it was that it didn't feel like it was crazy until later, it became a thing.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

And so could you talk more about like how you like- because you mentioned like you made skits, and you had to essentially like train people. Could you talk more about that?

KRISTINE HERMAN

So, I think was my third or fourth year I worked closely with the dean of students and I kind of took on a roll, I actually don't know how it happened, a formal role of being one of a couple like, media spokespeople, who basically represented the student body for external events and external press, and media. We found we needed to have some coordinated response because this campus was getting inundated and it was getting infiltrated. You know, I'm sure people have mentioned, there were like really insane, nationally provocative pieces of like cameras trying to bust open dorm room doors and like catch people in bed, like 00:26:00without their consent, you know, and like really, you know, we were descended upon in different ways and there was a lot of interest in it. Also, good interest. Like, I remember, I wrote a piece, I think it was co-authored, but maybe it wasn't, with Andy Abrams. We did a piece or I did it for the Chronicle of Higher Education. And like we were trying to sort of explain like the benefit of this and the innovativeness, but not like, in a way that was, you know, going to play into the mockery. And so, I had this role as like a sort of a media spokesperson and that really was a profound experience for me because, you know, maybe even in the process of doing this interview, but like, when you explain 00:27:00things other people, it really helps solidify, sort of, you know, where I am in it. It helps, it helps. You know, really the putting something into words is its own kind of learning process and self-awareness journey. And so for me, it was a great experience.

KRISTINE HERMAN

I really felt like it prepared me in lots of ways in life because all of a sudden I was trying to speak on something that was national and rooted in thought and experience and true lived experience. Entire groups of people that debate, like the validity of it, wanted to debate, the necessity of it, the efficacy of it, wanted to debate like, you know. And it was sort of, I mean it was real time in my life to be able to navigate all of these other spaces that 00:28:00were not so, they were not Antioch, they were not welcoming to this new idea that you know, we're still talking about 30 years ago. That's still in the media. You know, it was- it's amazing now for me to think about how, you know, those initial leaders were decades ahead of their time and so many ways around it, sadly around the words affirmative consent. But yeah, the role just solidified with the dean of students and within the administration and, you know, I never was a formal member of community government. I wasn't, you know, a community manager, although my a lot of my close friends went in to community government and being community managers. I, you know, I really loved being able to kind of move around and try to convince people of like why this was a good thing or a great thing. Or why it's better or why, you know, everyone should be 00:29:00having this. Or, you know, I remember going through, I think it was Bard (College) had a huge Take Back the Night event and speaking there and like, they were just so hungry and, you know, and this is the mid 90s, to have something that talked about affirmative consent. And it was, you know, it was really thrilling and exciting to be able to be at Antioch. That really was sort of at the forefront of a national conversation and try to make sure it was taken seriously and not, and not marginalized, you know, that was a really fortunate position. I just was in at the right time, you know? And my journey there.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

So would you say then that the policy was effective at Antioch?

KRISTINE HERMAN

Oh gosh. I mean, how do you measure effectiveness? Does it prevent sexual assaults? I don't know about that. Did it minimize the number of assaults? I 00:30:00hope so. Did it reduce them? I hope so. Did it clarify the community expectations for people? I really hope so. I know that at the time it was rolled out the person I'm talking and thinking of specifically, one of the guys who, in the early years of rollout, I would say and he I don't remember him ever saying this necessarily to me directly, but through our conversations about that time frame. I would say he fully believed that it worked for him in the sense that it's it provided an opportunity for self correction in a way that clarified, what the real expectation should have been and should be and what the right way to navigate an interaction with another person so that they don't ever feel harmed by it. I feel like it was a very important learning. And so from like a procedural justice point of view, I think it worked.

KRISTINE HERMAN

You know, I'd be really curious to hear what folks since, you know, 90 since maybe since 1999 onwards feel about it. But my feeling when I left in the mid 90s and late 90s, was that this was great, not like utopia, not like we've eradicated all you know, sexual assault, but wouldn't be great to create an entire edict on how we how we all think we should treat each other and communicate to each other in a community that, at least when I was there, was very, very, very free. Everybody was, you know, whether to keep each other safe in a climate of whether it's alcohol or substances, or, you know, nudity or, you 00:32:00know, shared co-ed showers or in order to keep each other safe in an environment where people could in other contexts be made vulnerable. We had to have some new standards for how we communicated with each other to try to, at least avoid harm. And I think in that respect, it broke ground and hopefully made a leap forward in that sort of cultural expectation of what we should do. But, you know, I also feel like we're- we don't leave our cultural baggage at the door when we ente-r Antioch. So I feel like all of us enter there and continue to enter and learn, you know, how to how to act in a situation and our own skills and that's- those are skills we're asking people to acquire, you know, pretty 00:33:00late in life. If we, you know, affirmative consent should be taught to kids in preschool and kindergarten not to college students, frankly. So if we start there at Age 3 4 5 & 6, I think we'd have really been more successful but...

ISABELLE JUNIPER

I 100% agree with that. So with your SOPP work at Antioch, did it lead to a lifelong commitment with consent or issues like that?

KRISTINE HERMAN

Yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean, I became a gender justice attorney. You know, like I had my own story before coming to Antioch and I have my own history that can be read about in some of the books that have been written about the SOPP. 00:34:00There's been, I think I've contributed to those books and so in my own journey, the SOPP was one more layer on top of a lot of experiences, but that particular layer not just the SOPP, but the entire experience of the four years. That first year, you know, watching women create change and being able to be a small part of watching them do that and participating when when it was possible. It was, it was really impactful to who I became as an adult, and in my professional life and in my personal passions and commitments. I mean, my entire life has been really focused since that time on human rights and using- to be inclusive of a gender-equal world, and you can't have gender equality in any way without, you 00:35:00know, people being free from violation and people being able to have safety and security in their being. And and we can't just be- we can't- one group of people to be louder, you know, we have to create create the space for you know, for everyone to be able to be and be safely. And so my work every day (breaks up)

KRISTINE HERMAN

So, my point was that. it has the- my first year at Antioch as a training ground of watching, you know taking lived experiences to create change for others who come through the door after them. And then my years later being sort of in a position to harness my experience and my awareness that grew out of those 00:37:00moments to speak on the SOPP and on the idea of affirmative consent and to be a contributor, hopefully a little bit in that field, it impacted every job choice I had since 1994, it affected my desire to go first to get my masters in social work. Although my adviser at the time was pissed I didn't go for a PhD, and I didn't. I then realized I wanted to be more powerful when I spoke. So I went right to law school from my master's entirely to do reform work. I mean, it was never, I never took a case, really. I never was like going into law or social work to do individual practitioner work, direct service casework. It was systemic change and it was systemic change, specifically around issues of gender equality. And that came explicitly from the idea of the astounding realities of, 00:38:00you know, women across the globe, you know, not in any way confined to one culture, one country, one religion. But the true sort of global pandemic problem of gender inequality. And so I don't think any of that would have happened without sort of these deeply awakening experiences at Antioch and coming into my own understanding of what moves me. What drives me, what fuels me, and what enrages me, and that started at Antioch, you know? It really did. The SOPP, those conversations. Those fights, those arguments, those words from frat boys in audiences. And Dr. Ruth and Katie Rophie. And the mockery in SNL. There's at 00:39:00least two, what are they fucking called? Two Time magazine's, that there are photos of me and Andy Abrams in one. And me, and Greg Powers in another whenever where like, you're just having this national conversation and being like, 'no, you all are the crazy ones'. Like, you have it wrong. Like, can't you see, you know, and I think that's sort of what I've been saying now for 30 years, and it's because of that. So I'm super, I'm so fortunate to have landed at Antioch when I did in that moment because it's- I would not be the person I am without it.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Yeah, I've definitely pieces some of the pieces from time and major publications. It's also kind of amazing how some people can get so close to the 00:40:00point and completely as well. Like you mentioned a person in one of the articles by name who I've read the article he's involved in and yes, he comes very close to the point, but he misses it. Like what? Just when you think he's going to get it. He misses it entirely. So I understand what you're saying with that. So do you think that there are conversations that we should still be having?

KRISTINE HERMAN

Oh my God, yeah. I mean, yeah. I'm a parent. My son is 10. And I'm both like amazed and then sometimes horrified that we're still having conversations with kids about they have a right to say no. And so does everyone else, It feels like I'm still in the minority in teaching my son that no one, you know, you can't 00:41:00touch another person's body without their consent. No matter what. And by the way, no one should touch yours without your consent. So if you say, you don't want me to hug you, I got to listen to your no, because God damn it, I want you to listen to someone else's. And so, I just think it sort of horrifies me that that's not the norm, that's not the norm. And in, you know, all of the parenting circles and all of the parent groups and all of my son's school and all of the grades. I mean, it's you know, there's whole articles written about whether or not you can tell your kid they don't have to hug their grandparent. And that's still being written today and it's 30 fucking years later. And we're still having a discussion, like ooh does your kid have a right to say no to an adult? And now as an adult and it's like, oh my God, yes, you know. And so, you know, it's devastating to some extent that we haven't culturally. The idea of like 00:42:00everything. We like, just affirmative consent, man like that. Should just be the de facto default, like, cultural norm. And instead, it's still the anomaly, and still a little bit like the- 'ooh you're, you know, okay'. Like no, imagine them being the norm. So it's, yeah, we're not there. I wish we were, we're not

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Thank you, I really appreciate that. To wrap up looking back on it, is there anything you regret about it or that you would have done differently with your time at Antioch?

KRISTINE HERMAN

Firstly, I think I would have done a little differently, I definitely would have 00:43:00listened more and talked less. You know, I think that I and this is true, of many people perhaps who gravitate towards Antioch, but I felt very strongly. Even when I completely did a 180, you know, ten months later, but at the time, I really meant it, you know, but if I had to do all over again, I would really shut up. And I would listen more and I would pay attention even more and I would realize I had a lot more to learn before I opened my mouth and before I took a stand on something that I didn't fully grasp. I thought I did. I mean, don't we all? But like, so that's one thing I would do a little differently that very, especially that first year. I think I would pay more attention and listen, more and speak less. I don't know that there's much else. I would change in terms of 00:44:00this back then I would say that there are, you know, personal choices I would have, I would have done different with friends.

KRISTINE HERMAN

Like, you know, I went out, I wouldn't have drank those, you know, 40 ouncers that I think were drugged by that townie, you know what I mean? Like, shit like that, right? Like personal decisions where you're like, you know, developing this like mature adult consciousness, but at the same time, you know, you're 19 and 20, 21 years old, you're still an adolescent. So you still like fucking up and making bad decisions and so certainly, there are personal decisions around vulnerabilities and risk that I would do differently. But in terms of that place 00:45:00and that time and the SOPP, I mean, I feel like, and I don't think I'm alone in feeling this way, like, lucky to be there in the best years like that. I somehow landed in the best years of like all time for Antioch, you know like that. I just like and maybe it's just because it was the best years for me, but I just feel like go bad for everyone who goes there from 1990-1994, you know, like it was really it was really great.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

That's amazing. Actually. I really like that. Is there anything you would want or any advice you would give to either current or future Antiochians?

KRISTINE HERMAN

Oh for both of those groups, I think would be the same, which is, you know, take 00:46:00as many lessons as you can from the people that came before you and really, you know, hear them and integrate them and see paths that were forged, but at the same exact time I would say, push that fucking envelope, like push it further than you ever thought it could be. If not, you know, like because years from now, we'll be talking about whatever like cutting edge, amazing badass, cultural shift that should have been happening. All along. That was pushed forward by, you know, Antiochians. And so it would be, you know, forge the path, you know, take some lessons from your predecessors as much as you can and like, break ground and be loud. That would be it. Make trouble.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Thank you. I really appreciate that. So I will go ahead then and I will stop the recording. Great.