00:00:00ISABELLE JUNIPER
All right, and so for archiving purposes, this is Juniper Wonn. Interviewing
Melanie Louis Courtice. September 28th, and on the SOPP. And so, I guess just
that first, tell me about your early life, like, where you were born. And what
brought you to Antioch?
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
Well, I was actually, I'm kind of back in my own home town. I was born in Kansas
City. Well, I was born in Independence. Missouri. We live in Kansas City,
Missouri now. You know, I was never a very good student. Although I really love
to learn. I struggled with some behavior issues in my early life. And so, by the
00:01:00time I got to high school, you know, college wasn't really on my radar but my
sister was touring schools and I went with her and my dad and we toured Antioch
and I just loved it. I really it was just a place. I just felt like I could fit
in there, you know? And for me, I Traditional School. I have ADHD. I have all
the a lot of those kind of things that I struggled with as a, well still do but
definitely trying to fit in a Traditional School setting. It just, you know, I
was always kind of labeled either problem or, you know, not smart enough, but at
Antioch just the way it was set up. It was so much easier for me to learn and be
part of things. But anyway, the when I when I went for the interview like I got
lost in the Glen and like, showed up with, like I was literally in the Glen for
00:02:00like three hours. Couldn't figure out how to get out and I finally did it was
like five minutes before my interview and I had like leaves in my hair and mud
all over me and you know, they were just I can't remember who I'm really bad
with names, just in general, but I can't remember who interviewed me, but they
actually said something about it at graduation, but they were just enjoyed that,
right. Whereas I was feeling very like embarrassed, but they thought that it was
super cool that I went into the Glen by myself and you know, so I was surprised
to be accepted there honestly, and I really was grateful and I'm still to this
day, very grateful that I was able to go there despite this really rough part
here. There was definitely a lot of rough Parts but overall, I think you know,
00:03:00it gave me the opportunity to be educated and in time where a lot of my kind of
Neuro-diverse brain wasn't well understood as far as getting educated. So, yeah,
I mean, I'm grateful. I've been able to get a masters degree and pursue a lot of
things that I wanted to.
ISABELLE JUNIPER
So do you remember? Do you know, what year you entered? Or around the,
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
I mean it was like 89 or I think. I mean, maybe 88 or 89. Pretty sure I got I'm
not a hundred percent sure exactly. But around there. Clearly before this
happened. So that wasn't so, I mean, I think yeah, I would say, I think was an
00:04:0088 or 89.
ISABELLE JUNIPER
Okay, I do ask because I wanted to ask about fall 1990. So in my a lot of my
background research there were, there were a couple papers and articles written
that said, like, fall 90 fall of 1990 was like a lot of the events that happened
only served to exacerbate like tensions, on campus and the feelings like of
Tensions between like Administration and students and students and students on
campus. Like, there were a couple deaths and events that happen in. So I was
wondering what your thoughts on that were? Do you think like the events of fall
1990? Possibly led to an increase in tensions on campus? Or was it like sort of?
Was there more of it or was it more par for the course?
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
I mean, when I went there, I'm not sure what it's like now, but, you know, we
00:05:00need to have a campus full of young people who are being allowed to. Express
themselves, you know, like it was really great. But also, you know, don't really
censor yourself or pick your battles at first, right? So I do think there's
times maybe where there was really no pleasing anyone as I look back at it as an
adult. I don't know. I don't remember. Honestly, what happened exactly when I
mean this didn't occur in the fall of 90, right. Or did it?
ISABELLE JUNIPER
so the Take Back the Night and the like the community meeting and all that
happened in Fall 90. And then it was your first letter was in 1991. Um according
00:06:00to the record.
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
Anyway, okay, that meant so this. Okay, so I don't think I was in the country
for the fall of 90. I don't think I was on campus. and, So that happened in the
spring of 1991? My part? The letters. It happened. My husband is enjoying, this
is hard. But there's just your the thing about Antioch is you're on and off
campus so much. I am 30 years ago.
ISABELLE JUNIPER
I can relate to that so much. So you're like your first letter appeared in like
November of 91 and So, since you were
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
I don't think I was there for the whole year of 90/91, I think I was out of the
country on a, you know, I went on. You know, one of the study abroad programs
00:07:00through Antioch and then return to the fall of 91.
ISABELLE JUNIPER
So did you hear about anything that was happening on campus, with the SOPP at
the time?
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
I don't think I did. I didn't know about it until this it already happened. I
mean, I think I did hear about it, but it didn't, it didn't penetrate, my kind
of self, you know. Agenda at that moment, you know, I was not ever very good
socially either. So I wasn't like really like a part of Big things, you know, I
just kind of had my own thing. You know, I mean, it's kind of what I liked about
Antioch is I didn't feel like that was a problem as much as other places, you
know, where you kind of have to be part of things. So,
ISABELLE JUNIPER
Did you so were you aware then at all? Like had had consent or had conversations
00:08:00of like consent or like other matters that were covered by the SOPP than had
that had you encountered any of those prior to the, it being passed.
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
I mean, I can't say that it hadn't come up somewhere. But as far as peers or,
you know, I don't remember ever talking about it. I mean, this was 30 years ago,
so I'm not I can't say for sure but it doesn't stick with me that it was a
conversation before hand before this happened. You know, I don't, I don't know.
ISABELLE JUNIPER
Okay,
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
I mean, I definitely dated. I mean, I definitely was, you know, Antioch like so,
but I don't, I don't remember. It wasn't an issue, and I don't remember it
00:09:00being. Such a thing. But yeah, I don't know.
ISABELLE JUNIPER
Okay. So I guess moving on then we could talk about your case. And so did you
know like did you know like what your options were like did, did you know that
you could file like a claim or acted? Someone like tell that to you? Like was it
known? Like was it known throughout the college that this was a system in place?
And like this is what you could do or
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
I think it was. Yeah, I do think I knew on some, I mean, I don't know if I knew
all the details, but I do know I did think it was an option. It wasn't honestly,
something I was going to do originally except that two other people had two
other. Women had told me that they had had similar experiences with this person,
00:10:00and I felt like, I don't know. Like that was what I should do, but honestly, I
was not prepared for what was going to happen. And yeah.
ISABELLE JUNIPER
So what did happen?
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
I don't really remember how the first part went. Like, if I filled out something
or I don't know how that part went, and I've been trying to kind of remember,
but the parts that I remember is that, you know, when it came down to the
hearing part or whatever it was. I had a peer Advocate, you know, someone my own
age and the other person had two attorneys, you know, and so at one point,
someone said well you can go you can sit in and listen to what they're saying
and I went in there and then they're like, well now you have to testify because
00:11:00you're in here it's no longer anonymous and I mean, I didn't even want to go
ahead and sleep with this. It is I don't want to sound like I'm blaming her
because she literally was my age like we it was like no adult was present, you
know, like know I wish there had been someone who could have just helped me
process this before it happened. Who could have helped me? Maybe? I don't know
it just and then after that, I mean my advisor was the head person, you know,
and then he was found like not guilty or whatever and they told me he couldn't
come into my dorm and then he was in my dorm. And then when I called they're
like, well there's it was just a suggestion. Just like, I felt. I felt just
invisible and just I don't know, foolish and you know, I don't know. It was
00:12:00weird. Nobody talked to me about it even like you know, nobody other people that
afterwards, somebody put this flyer out that said his name and said, he's your
brother and our worst enemy which just sounded racist as fuck and it was, I
don't know who did that. And the whole thing just seemed like, there's either
people who did not want to talk to me, or people who are just so invested in the
drama, the whole thing. And I just wanted out of it. I just I felt gross and
angry, and you know. I didn't know what to do. so, is I think the process would
00:13:00resolve something really, you know, I thought it would, you know, he had taken
me to his apartment. I wanted to live off campus and he was living with these
people and their base. They have like a basement apartment. And he took me there
to show me the apartment that's, you know, and he it was like out, not too far
from Antioch, but kind of out like, you know the roads or whatever and I don't
remember why he drove me there by car wasn't going, but you know, he got way
friendly. And I was scared and didn't know how to get out. So that was kind of
what I did. You know, I don't know. And I just wanted things to be dealt with
like, I don't know. Yeah, it was it sucked.
00:14:00
ISABELLE JUNIPER
When you went to the so you said that you filed the claim. And so you like
you're in that, The Advocate was a person, your own age, where they a student or
was it?
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
Yeah, it was a friend. Like somebody, I knew. Yeah
ISABELLE JUNIPER
And did you remember them telling like do they do remember them like, telling
like going over like the process with you? Or like saying like explicitly? What
your options were?
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
I mean, they probably did. I don't again, you know, it's been a long time. I'm
not sure. I mean, I feel like I did know what this like whole process was good.
I mean, I did know, there's going to be like a hearing or something. I didn't
know there would be attorneys involved. I didn't I thought it would be like you
00:15:00know, I don't know like, Talking. I don't know, like figuring it out. Not like I
don't, I don't know. I was probably being very naive.
ISABELLE JUNIPER
It does say, like it does kind of hint in the original, like documents that it
would be, more of like a hearing, like a hearing Style with, like mediators. And
so, I'm sure they the college, you know, you weren't expecting him to show up
with two attorneys.
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
Yeah, I think that was his family's decision.
ISABELLE JUNIPER
Mmm. So you do you think that is since I know in your letter, you essentially.
The college was out to protect itself from that point. Do you think the do you
think they like were more invested and sort of like there? With like not. With
appeasing, the lawyers that supposed to like the actual like. Justice of the. I
00:16:00don't want to say justice but the actual like results of the case.
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
Yeah, I don't think they cared. I think, I don't know if they wanted to appease
the lawyers as much as maybe they just didn't want this to be on Antioch or.
Yeah, I don't know but I certainly didn't feel like they were helping me. I
mean, clearly I did read a little bit of one of my letters. I was pretty pissed,
but yeah, no. And the other thing too, is that people just. The process act like
it wasn't just a process for me. You know, it was something that was literally
hurting me after I had been kind of frightened and, you know, this whole
00:17:00situation that had happened and it wasn't like it felt like everybody else was
going through this thing and I didn't know how to, you know, stop it or I don't
know, it just it felt really bad. It still feels bad. I mean, it's something
that has been with me for 30 years like feeling, you know, I'm raising
daughters, and it's hard because, you know, what do I tell them really about? We
can talk about consent, but when it comes down to something, actually happening,
you know, like clearly things have not changed, not just at Antioch, but I mean
in the world and That's really hard.
ISABELLE JUNIPER
Thank you. I really, I really appreciate that. Last part to I am. That's
definitely very much. I agree with you. On that part. I did want to ask a few
more questions as long as you don't mind. Yeah, I did want to, I did want to go
00:18:00back to because you mentioned in your emails. So was it because of your letters
into the record that people were trying, like, certain people on campus were
trying to sort of silence you.
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean that was weird. I just I felt I don't remember why I
started writing those letters or what happened. Maybe. I've okay, I guess I
think I, I think I started I wrote. Do you know did I that was I responding to
someone or was I writing it? I think I was writing it because I was angry and
feeling like nobody was knew what was happening.
ISABELLE JUNIPER
I don't think there's a direct response in your letter because it does start
00:19:00with one week ago last Friday. Then you go on to describe the events. You just
you go on to describe the events of the night and then you and then you say,
That you want some action.
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
But does someone respond to me? I think somebody was responding to me or
something after I don't remember. But yeah, I mean, they wanted to take me to
student student council for that and that floored me even more like it's Antioch
for one. So you're telling me that there's some space that I can't say
something? Like, I mean that was weird. Like, how is it that I can't talk about
what's literally happening? Here, you know what I mean? Like I'm not going to go
00:20:00in front. Plus I I was struggling like I was really struggling and I needed some
help really. I didn't need that was you know, it wasn't just that part but that
was the mindset of a lot of people who were like, the only interactions I was
getting was about this process and this whole thing and he was like, this is
happening like it's It's not. Just that, you know what I mean? It's more than
like right now in my life. This is happening in my life. You know, I felt too
ashamed to tell my parents. I don't think I've ever told my parents, you know, I
I really needed just some an adult to help me and not just tell me they're going
to take me to student council or, you know, I couldn't talk to my advisor. She
00:21:00ran the whole thing. Like why would that be the case? You know, that was really
awkward, and really difficult for the rest of my time there. so,
ISABELLE JUNIPER
So you sort of felt sort of you felt like, like you said in your email
unprotected and unheard. And oh sorry go ahead-
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
I probably should read the letters before we talk. I haven't.
ISABELLE JUNIPER
No, it's totally fine.
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
No, this is these are just the feelings after all these years. I know at that
time. I was angry and you know, I mean, I think there's probably yeah we are
just really young. We were all young and super dumb. Probably not that you are.
00:22:00I'm sure you're super smart- we didn't. I came from Missouri, you know, we did
not talk about that. I don't think even my friends were like from New York. I
don't think many of them talked about it either. This is all kind of new like,
how to navigate that a lot of this stuff. Most of us just assumed, it was going
to happen anyway, you know, so, to have some way of addressing it seemed like
such a good idea and I hopefully it is now a good idea. But at that time it
didn't work out for me that great but that doesn't mean that I don't think it's
important because I do. I think it was unfortunate like it just wasn't ready or
something. I don't know.
ISABELLE JUNIPER
I did see in the record where? The month after sort of. So there was sort of
00:23:00thing that you're like original letter and then the winter break and then like
they came back and there was like a storm around that with like so many replies
to you, but I did see in February where they were putting they put the SOPP up
for review. And do you think possibly that you had any Involve-like, do you
think you Even though they can, if you didn't have like direct involvement in
that, that because of your case, they chose to re-evaluate the SOPP and reword
it. To give it greater legal standing?
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
Oh, yeah, I do think so. I had no involvement. I mean, I remember I went to like
00:24:00one of those meetings and it was just so awkward and felt really uncomfortable.
But I do think they did. It was so clearly, just a shit show. I mean, I think.
You know, the wording back then was like accuser. I was the accuser and he was
the accused. Like oh my god, really? That's just. You know, when you're already
feeling so vulnerable and everything's getting put out there, just all that. So
I do think it did. Yeah, but I didn't have anything directly to do with it at
that point anymore.
ISABELLE JUNIPER
I think that. Okay, so, I think that should pretty much cover it for that. I do
00:25:00want to ask. So, do you think that overall, as an idea the SOPP has been a
beneficial policy because it's not only been adopted by Antioch now. It's being
adopted. It's been the story of a lot of colleges. Now for a lot of years. Do
you think overall the general idea of it is a good one?
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
Absolutely. I mean, I think I do think that you know, They're the more that we
talk about consent. I mean we talk about consent with our daughters from day
one, right? I'm talking about my own family, you know, I have two girls, but I
think the thing about this whole process is that it brings everyone in, everyone
needs to be talking about this. It is not just women, right? And his men to men
00:26:00need to understand, you know, their piece, they need. But they, we all need to
be on the same page. And I think that's always been a big problem. You know what
I mean? Consent. The process of talking about consent and making consent a
concrete thing in a relationship. Especially with young people, especially on
college campuses, you know, all sorts of things are going. You know, it's
really, I do think it's beneficial and but I think this process of talking about
sexual assault and sexual abuse and sexual misconduct, you know, is fraught with
on college campuses, you know, clearly issues of class of who has money, who can
afford attorneys, who uh race, of course, you know, I think that was part of it.
I think there's discomfort because the not my I mean, I guess they asked my race
00:27:00because I was white woman and he was a person of color, you know, that was. You
know, all of these things play into it and I think we need to be conscious of
all those factors for everyone to be safe and you know feel like they're going
to be heard. And I don't know how things are at Antioch, but I do know in the
bigger world. A lot of those things have not changed much. So.
ISABELLE JUNIPER
And do you think and to wrap up. Do you have any advice for like future
generations of people? Antiochians or otherwise?
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
I guess I would say. I mean, the thing that I love about being an Antioch
alumni, is that you know, I learned there. To kind of speak my mind. That the
00:28:00things that I was thinking, were okay to say outside out loud. You know, I'm
from Missouri. I'm a girl. From Missouri. Like we don't where I'm from. We just
didn't talk like that. You know, we wouldn't question things that way and I
don't know if I would have had the courage to do a lot of things had I not gone
to Antioch and learned that the things that I was thinking and feeling inside,
were okay to talk about and to be angry and upset about and want to change, you
know what I mean? So, I just would say like those things that you're feeling.
Just go for that, you know, like follow that and believe it that you can change
things because you can, you know, I think even with this consent thing, even
though this was not a great experience for me, Antioch has done this huge thing
00:29:00that really needed to happen. I mean sexual assault on campus on campus. Is is
terrible. I'm a therapist. I work with young people and you know, I know it's
people really struggle with that. So it's good. I don't know if any of this
makes sense, but just, you know, find your voice and don't let it fade, you
know, just keep doing that and I hope you're going to edit some of this. This is terrible
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
honestly
ISABELLE JUNIPER
Spoken like a true Antiochian
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
know, it's gonna, you know, just be a rebel. That's a good thing to be and yeah,
ISABELLE JUNIPER
Awesome. So I think I got everything I wanted to cover for the interview. So
thank you very much for that. I'm going to stop recording now.
00:30:00
MELANEY LEWIS-COURTICE
Okay
