April Wolford SOPP Oral History Interview

ISABELLE JUNIPER

It is going alright, so this is Isabelle Juniper recording April Wolford on the history of the SOPP on October 1st. So tell me about your early life. Where did you grow up and what was your family like?

APRIL WOLFORD

Well, thanks for having me, June and for doing this project. And let's see, I grew up in a town in Ohio, in the middle of the state called Mount Vernon. It's the home of the Nazarene College and also close to Gambier, Ohio and where Kenyon College is and my mother worked there for many years. She was a single parent from the time that I was about eight years old. And so, once you got the 00:01:00job at Kenyon, she worked in the cafeteria there and was the lunch lady. So, she adopted all of the kids at Kenyon College. Same, as always adopted every child she could find mmm and let's see. So then I grew up there in town and...

APRIL WOLFORD

What was my early life like? Oh, so my mom was a single working mother. And so we grew up relatively poor. I had free lunches. And then when I finally did get- end up going to Antioch on a very, very excellent, financial aid package and I have one sibling and his name is Fred and he lives in Las Vegas as a bartender now, but we were very close family. The three of us against any kind of an adversity. I always felt like that bonded us really close together and made us a 00:02:00tight-knit family.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

And so, what brought you to Antioch, how did you hear about it?

APRIL WOLFORD

I heard about Antioch from my one of my close friends, who I grew up with in Mount Vernon. Her name is Abby Underwood. Although she goes by Abby Maitland now. And she- we both were in high school in Mount Vernon. And did not really enjoy that experience very much. It was a really small town and a lot of farming communities around us. And, you know, I was a very different kind of person. Of course, later I discovered, I was queer and bunch of other reasons why I was different than most of the people there. But difference wasn't really embraced in that part of Ohio. So, again, it was really challenging, but Abby decided that she had had her fill of the high school in Mount Vernon, and she applied to Antioch, when she was a junior, and they accepted her without a high school 00:03:00diploma at that time. And that was in 1985. 1985 Abby came to school here without a high school degree. And then she said, hey, you should come and check out Antioch, but at that time, I felt like I didn't want to be in a small town because I had grown up in a small town. So I wanted to go to the big city and be a part of, you know, the big city. So I decided to go to the University of Akron first, and study engineering, and, and that was a pretty wild experience because I really was a country mouse in a big city. One of my favorite memories of my former self there was walking downtown of downtown Akron where the University was right near downtown and we had to cross over this bridge that went over railroad tracks, but it was all concrete and they have planted trees in the concrete as planters, right? And all over the bridge. They have these trees. But 00:04:00I had never seen trees in the sidewalk before and so I was really sad for those trees. Oh my god, what have they done to you? They put you in this like bridge.

APRIL WOLFORD

And now, you know, I've lived in some of the most urban places in the country and, you know, very different kind of experience, but that's where I started off. Like trees don't grow in concrete. They grow in the Earth, you put them in there. So, but I had a great time there. I learned a lot of things, but I didn't really like the educational experience. So, instead, I went to California. I hitched a ride with a Kenyan college graduate and went out to the Bay Area, and the lived there and worked like a bunch of jobs and tried to survive with no money. And and then eventually, I was like, hey, I think I'm going to check out 00:05:00that Antioch place that Abby has said I should go to because if you don't have a college degree. You really are not going to get paid anything in this world. So that was one of the things that motivated me to go back was a lot of hard work for, not a lot to show for it. And so, I came back and I came back to Ohio on the Greyhound bus from Los Angeles and went to Antioch and talked with the admissions counselor for two hours and I left there thinking that was one of the most interesting conversation I've ever had. I've never been engaged like that. He asked me if I was interested in civil rights and I was like, I know I am but I don't know anything about this.

APRIL WOLFORD

So anyway, he said this is the place for you and I agreed so he sent me my acceptance letter and that was when I realized that was my admissions interview and a few months later, I was here and I knew that it was the right place for me 00:06:00at that. The time I had a mohawk because that was the late 80s and that was what people did especially since I had lived in the Bay Area. I mean, that's where, you know, that style was sort of born. And when I got to Antioch, there were people with blue hair and green hair and all kinds of hair. And I realized that I was like, okay, so I'm just like everybody else here, now.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

It's nice to see that has not changed.

APRIL WOLFORD

So, and the other great thing was my mother who is is a really lovely person. She had dropped me off. Then she went to hear of the dean of students. At that time. His name was Steve Schwerner and he did a talk for all the parents to kind of explain some of what their what their kids were going to go through and what Antioch was like. And so she came back to Birch where I was and said she was 00:07:00crying and she said, I think you're you're going to like it here.

APRIL WOLFORD

It was- she was spot-on on that one boy. At the time I was there, I used to say I was bored about 20 minutes the whole ten years. I was an illustrator. So that's how I came to the college. But I was older by that time I turned 21 when I got here and I feel like that was better for me. Like I really wasn't ready for Antioch right out of high school.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

So what was Antioch life like for you?

APRIL WOLFORD

What was it like? That's an interesting question.

APRIL WOLFORD

Well, it was both fun and challenging. Because Antioch is about challenging, you 00:08:00know, so and I had not experienced that until that, really. People didn't challenge each other in the town where I grew up. They, you know, everybody wanted to agree. It's a weird Midwestern kind of dementia that people get and so that was kind of contrary to my personality because I'm a Libra and I like things to be harmonious. So, part of my, but I turned that into a skill.

APRIL WOLFORD

So I learned how to facilitate and I knew I was good at listening. And so, you know, I quickly became a leader here in the in the community in what was then known as the Lesbian-Gay Center. And so I, you know, I became engaged in that and it was the first time I studied sort of myself, you know, to think about what does it mean to be a lesbian? Or what does it mean to be gay? And the end, what does it mean for you know us politically as well as our work experiences at 00:09:00Antioch? But there was a lot of really amazing community around us. Like there was a large queer student population. And, those in our independent groups were very strong. And community government was a really neat structure. Like right now Community Government is just getting its legs whatever the new version is, but our community government was an organization. And it ran, you know, I as the community manager when I had that job, I ran the recycling program, a coffee shop, all the campus movies. That went we funded almost all the social programs. I had a 250 thousand dollar budget. That was all funded from Community Government fees. The student students paid fees, staff paid fees, faculty paid fees, and then everyone got to share in the money. So faculty could bring 00:10:00speakers, all kinds of good stuff. Good, you know, came out of that. And then that is also the reason that the sexual offense policy and what led up to it, followed was was as successful as it was, I believe that that model fostered things like that, and innovation. Which is essentially what we were doing. So, it was a vibrant community. It was contentious. It was the 90s in many ways. It was Ronald Reagan's era. There was a lot of, you know, people especially progressives were dissatisfied with a lot with what was happening in the country and the direction that we were going. And then the AIDS crisis was also born during our time which was both tragic and amazing in the activism that emerged 00:11:00out of that. So Act Up and MOVE, you know, those groups were doing amazing, creative activism to get the attention, you know, of the of the federal government and the fact that this disease was being virtually ignored. So, we had a lot of Friday forums around that one. I don't know if you've seen the t-shirt that says, well it kind of got, did it get, you know, that was the boot camp t-shirt. But the one that says, "Antioch College: boot camp for the revolution. Activism plus responsibility and action equal change", so that picture. I designed that T-shirt and with the help of another Antioch student, my friend Ditzy Eddie. And that was based on a Friday Forum event where we were discussing change and how it would happen. Right? Like, and then the question came up is Antioch, you know, will the revolution sort of be born at Antioch and one of our faculty members said, no, you know, no. And and that was like, but, 00:12:00you know, I disagree and made a shirt out of that. Really interesting discussions.

APRIL WOLFORD

Also, gen-xers were I mean, sort of hard partiers. So our culture was very party heavy. We had a lot of alcohol and Community Government bought alcohol for parties. So there were kegs of beer almost every time. A lot of drunkenness that led to as you can imagine a lot of bad behavior. Also a lot of mess.

APRIL WOLFORD

Those are many ways of describing aspects of the culture that kind of describe it.

APRIL WOLFORD

One of the other things that happened right around the time of the policy was that we had this strange rash of students who died. Starting with a group who 00:13:00had gone to a protest at Wall Street and were in a campus van and as a group of about 12 or 15 Antioch students and the driver fell asleep at the wheel and the van flipped over into the medium. And several people were badly injured and the driver John was killed. And then and then at the Fall Orientation student named Belinda McGuire died of a brain aneurysm in the middle of a Greens group meeting. Which was extremely traumatic for everyone, I mean it was so sudden and unexpected. And so, there were like, literally six or seven people who passed away right about the same time that this date rape happened that inspired the sexual offense policy to come out. So you can imagine the time, this, you know, the energy was. There was a lot of grief, you know, and all the things that come 00:14:00with grief. Frustration, and anger, and disappointment. And so, you know, in many ways it was a little bit of an explosive atmosphere.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

So what we're conversations of consent, like, at the time before that quarter?

APRIL WOLFORD

Well, the conversations around that were. Were, well, let me I'll say a couple of things about that one because that was really the absence of no. And and that was the, that was the bar. So did you say no. Well, if you didn't say no, then you consented. Even if you fought back, there was some question about whether or not that was resistance- whether physical resistance was withdrawing consent. 00:15:00Because if you didn't verbalize it, that was the standard. So, it was, I think it was pretty intimidating for a lot of people who didn't know how to say no or didn't didn't know when to say no, because the skill set also didn't exist. Really, to speak for yourself, or to engage in a dialogue about it. So very rudimentary kind of consent tools.

APRIL WOLFORD

Also the way sexual offenses and assaults have been handled prior to the policy was on a very individualized basis. And so the dean of students' practice had been to have a conversation with the victim. That's what the person was known as of the time and ask them. What would you like to have happen as a result of 00:16:00this? And then those recommendations were almost always adopted, right? So whatever the victim wanted to have. So maybe that person might say before the policy was almost always women who came forward to say if there was an assault, and they would, you know, say a lot of times. Well, I don't want my assailant to be get in trouble or to be expelled or not, but I just don't want to live in the same dormitory or, you know, have to face them or those kinds of things. And so it was very, very one off depending on what that scenario would bring about. And so, as you can imagine, that wasn't a very good practice, but I think it held up for as long as it did because it was really focused on the, you know, 00:17:00reconciliation from the, from the victim's point of view. But then, in this case, it broke down because the dean essentially dropped the ball and he was supposed to move this person out of the dormitory in which, you know, the student lived and he didn't do that. And so Steffi had to face her- this guy every day and it was you know, that was what she initially came to complain about was that the administration had dropped the ball on that and he was still living in her space. So that's kind of like- that's both sides of it. I mean in the sense of like what are the repercussions of? Well, you didn't say no. So, you know, we wouldn't take it to CSB (community standards board) or through some kind of official process. Also with the idea that we're protecting this victim 00:18:00as well. A little paternalistic approach.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

And so you mentioned that she had, she had essentially grown tired of it. And so is that when essentially you all met to change, you know, change the policy?

APRIL WOLFORD

She came to a meeting of the Women's Center. So one of the independent groups there was just known as The Women's Center and it was one of the larger rooms on the top of the union building. And so it could be used for a bigger events and socializing, and it was really only for women. So men were not allowed to go in, which was a, which was an interesting aspect of the time. That also, you know, 00:19:00some of our early efforts to create space. Women's space, that really was women's space. But it also, you know, created a lot of drama of people who were messing around to go into cause trouble or whatnot. But anyway, there was a meeting of the women's center and Steffi brought this as a complaint, right? As a concern.

APRIL WOLFORD

She was upset that this hadn't been handled well and other women there were angry about it. And as I had, you know, mentioned that there was this already kind of this turmoil. There had been a strike. I believe of the Union staff, just a few months earlier. And then we had that car accident where John had died. And then I believe the Belinda had passed away very recently and the time. And so now we have this new, I mean, another emotionally-charged kind of situation for people to try to handle. And then that was just like the- that was 00:20:00the last piece, right? So the people were wanted to do something and I think as I told you before, I mean we were debating about what to do, but I'll say that Laurie Paul the person you're going to talk, to another person you'll talk to, called me that she was at the meeting but I was not originally at the meeting but she called me as the community manager and said you have to get up here and here's this conversation and what's happening.

APRIL WOLFORD

So I ran over to the union building and then was part of the process from then on. So then we had talked about a lot of different options. I remember suggesting that we think about writing a policy so that this doesn't happen again. My feeling was that this was the way to stop this arbitrary process that have been handled in the past by individual decision-making. And that instead we 00:21:00wanted to have guidelines and definitions of what consent was and that, you know, we knew the college would take these things seriously. And so in that meeting we drafted basically a list of demands that we wanted. And that actually Bethany Saltman, I believe, drafted that one that had the list of the demands that we took to what was called administrative council or ADCIL at that time.

APRIL WOLFORD

So, with our community government model was COMCIL, and ADCIL and ADCIL was essentially what college council is now. But very similar anyway. And so because that was the administrative body chaired by the president, it was the place to take it to, you know, get changes made in the ways that policies and procedures for handling. So. So that morning we came in with the List of Demands and 00:22:00presented it to the group. That's how it got started into a policy.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

What happened when you presented The List of Demands?

APRIL WOLFORD

Trying to remember that meeting.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

If you remember, yeah,

APRIL WOLFORD

Well, you know, I'm like how many years ago was that? But I know you're- the other people talk for or other oral histories extend many more years. So I'm going to-I'm working on it, but it's not...

APRIL WOLFORD

What I remember about that first meeting was that it was contentious. That because in part was we were mad, right? Like this, this was a failure of the administration and one that had caused harm to a student, to a community member. So there was, you know, just as hanging in the balance, for sure. Around that. And then also kind of an expectation of resistance. I think we did have a sense 00:23:00that, you know, others on the group because the ADCIL was made up of faculty, staff, students, the community manager and then some other offices, like the dean of faculty and others were part of the group, but we didn't know if they would understand what we were trying to do. But what we ended up doing in the meeting was forming a committee to review the list and and that ended up being the group that would draft the policy. So in a way it came, as a social action, or a political action, to ADCIL, to present this list of demands and change. And then the way I saw it, especially as the community manager was then it became a part of community government, then it was folded in as community action and 00:24:00became- when starting to go through a process to create community standards around it.

APRIL WOLFORD

And then also changes around administration, right? Because those were some of the failures too, the administration just have to change some things.

APRIL WOLFORD

I have to look at that list again, the original List of demands, you have that, don't you?

ISABELLE JUNIPER

I don't think so. Actually I have seen continuous mention of a list of Demands, but I didn't see it in either like The Record or like Scott's folders.

APRIL WOLFORD

Well, I have digital copies of those, so I will share, I even have the, I think I have the earliest policy that was approved and I have the one that I think is the best one that came out of after the advocate was hired. So after the review process of their, you know, kind of I guess it was a revision. Major revision of 00:25:00the policy then I have that version two, which I think is. I mean, they're both, they stand alone in my view. The policy was a statement as we had talked about before, where I feel, we defined affirmative consent. And our community standard around, what are the consequences for violating? And then the second row, or the first major revision was the start of the program. The prevention programs, the real integration of them into the community.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

So, how did you all sort of define the term as was there like a, did you all have like a specific goal of like changing the language of that was being used? 00:26:00Or were you just sort of did you have outside influences or were you kind of making it up? Like, not as you went along but like it was sort of like, this was new to you.

APRIL WOLFORD

All right. Well, this is a good time, I think that, to talk about the Take Back the Night marches and the efforts of women and other feminists from the early 80s around safety. And but it was really about self actualization, also. So it wasn't just about other people are going to keep you safe., right? Take Back the Night is an active stance of women are taking back the night in the sense of creating our own safety in that what has been a dangerous place. And so I think 00:27:00that was a major inspiration for how we felt about this. We were taking back, in many ways, our voice by taking back consent and redefining it as an affirmative case. So we built on that. I think we didn't know at the time like what it needed to become. But we knew that the absence of no was not the definition of consent. And so we knew that that had to change and that because that crux is damaged. Right, like if you, if all you can do is say no and then you don't even get to just say that well, how loudly did you say it, you know and so humiliating and degrading kind of circumstances, too.

APRIL WOLFORD

I thought that was the impetus, I think, to really work on that part of it. What 00:28:00is consent? Then if it's not the absence of no, what is it?

APRIL WOLFORD

There wasn't a particular moment where it turned into active consent. It was more of a process of thinking. You know, how does someone express that that they're, you know, that they certainly- if you fight back that's saying that you're not withdrawing your consent. Then, you know, then you become more sophisticated around the questions. Well, what if things change in the dynamic that you have in an intimate or sexual situation? Then is consent required, or do just consent one time at the beginning, and that's your last chance to withdraw your consent? And you know, instinctively, you know, that's not right. Right?

APRIL WOLFORD

Like, you should be able to, at any time, withdraw your consent and have that be 00:29:00respected and as your right as well, not just because you're expecting someone to be nice about it, but to recognize that that is your right to say, no. So that's more how I see it is that process. And once it was in the committee form then I, as the community manager was leading it through those processes.

APRIL WOLFORD

So when we had a draft of the policy, we sent it to Community Standards Board. And that at the time was chaired by John Hayes who was working in community government at that time. And so we send it to Community Standards Board and have them review it. How does this work with our existing community standards of the honor code, and other the civil liberties code and other documents that are 00:30:00protecting student's rights or community member's rights and balancing those with responsibility.

APRIL WOLFORD

So they provided feedback. Well, you know, we think this about this part of it or that part of it and we took it down to community council and had them review it and they had input into that and all of it came back to ADCIL because it was the policy making body. And then was sort of hashed out in what was a very interesting kind of procedural process too. Like, I admired our president at the time, whose name is Alan Guskin, for many reasons, because he supported this policy.

APRIL WOLFORD

Absolutely, and he knew that this was going to change lives in higher education, 00:31:00that this was going to have an impact across the landscape of higher ed, and he used Robert's Rules of Order very effectively to handle the, you know- because it was contentious throughout. People felt like, you know, we were defining things too... some people felt we were defining things too narrowly or pushing too far, right? Like we were pushing the envelope too far in some places and other people felt we weren't pushing it far enough. And to me that's a natural part of this process of how communities come into shared agreements. Is that you you have to bring people together around common ground or whatnot. So that was a lot of the work that we did and it was it was very hard, actually for me too, personally because I was in the middle of that. So sometimes I had to tell, you know, women of Antioch, you know, I think we have to you know, this policy is 00:32:00going to move in this direction away from what you felt was really necessary so that we can have the strongest support, we can get right now, right? So, that was really challenging. And it's, I mean, it's interesting challenges for leadership to figure out how to navigate situations like that. But the actual creation of it was a matter of documenting in, you know, detail the words that were being said and crafted in the administrative council meetings that ended up becoming the final language of the policy.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

So how many times do you remember? Like, how many times it took to meet with administrative council?

APRIL WOLFORD

Well, we met weekly, that group met weekly. And what did I think it moved fast through. The first policy was approved in January that would have been January 00:33:001990, right? No 91. Good Heavens. I'm all confused about those dates, I swear.

APRIL WOLFORD

But anyway, we started in November.

APRIL WOLFORD

So we must have met eight or ten times with the administrative council, but the committee meeting was an administrative council committee. So in the sense, that was the working group of ADCIL that was drafting the recommendations for the main the main council to review.

APRIL WOLFORD

So though, there were many more of those committee meetings, many perhaps every 00:34:00day. Sometimes I know I had more than one meaning a day about it because I was meeting with other groups. And I'm trying to find a way. I remember one male student asked me, what did he say said, how will I get the community to like the separatists more, again or..? So it was deeper than just the policy right? Like it was affecting how community members saw each other and a lot of biases about in those situations, too. Which you know as community members that we have a responsibility to face them, but sometimes it's hard to see.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

I think that's very evident from some of the, the letters written to the record. And so, do you remember like some of the feedback your criticisms, you were receiving at the time.

APRIL WOLFORD

You mean, me, personally or just like the women in general?

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Either personally or the women in general.

APRIL WOLFORD

Yes. That's right. So the women in general, well, that's where the separatists kind of thing came from. I think that was a backlash that that men felt like it was, I don't know all lesbians who were doing it, which wasn't true or, then they were separatists, but I was like, I don't think you know what that means because they wouldn't be here at this college if they were separatists, okay?

APRIL WOLFORD

And then I remember, I'll never forget Dr. Ruth when she came out and said that if men have to talk about sex, they'll never have an erection. I was stunned by that. I was like, wow, there's our sexpert. No, because men can't talk about sex. I'm like, what? Is that like a biological thing? I mean, why is this so? And then there was a lot of talk about contracts. Whether we had a contract but 00:36:00that was mostly during the media madness which actually happened like two years after the policy was approved by the time the media got a hold of it. And that's when they started characterizing it in these, you know, very like strict and controlled ways if you want to, no matter what, you have to ask permission, or get a contract signed. And people were calling the college asking for a copy of the contract. But on the other side of that, there was also a lot of amazing feedback that was coming from women at other colleges. Who had heard through the grapevine for the most part. This was early in it?

APRIL WOLFORD

Because the they started contacting us not for long after the after the policy was approved. And so we were sending out copies of our policy to anybody, you 00:37:00know, at these colleges who would ask for it. So I knew we were having influence there, too around that. So that was a positive kind of backlash, personally.

APRIL WOLFORD

I was- there was a backlash for me in that role that I was in. As I was saying, I, you know, my job as the community manager was to represent the interests of the whole community. And the question and a challenge for me was how to do that? And hold my values right to hold my commitment to change and to- into this, this work that we were doing. So, periodically, depending on the day, you know, there might be a faculty member who is really angry because I was pushing the envelope too far for their comfort, but then women, you know, who were some of my colleagues, women compatriots, were coming and saying, one said, why aren't you 00:38:00yelling in the meeting? You should be yelling. And I said, well, I mean, I feel like I cannot yell. That's not my role here.

APRIL WOLFORD

But you yell. I said you, you do that. And then my role is to try to bring those people along and understand your perspective and bring them along. But they- in some ways you when you think about your leader, right? You think, this person is my leader here. They should be more passionate or as passionate as I am about this situation. But, you know, one of the things I learned that's been a lifelong skill, is how to be strategic in that way, when you're trying to make change, like I don't want to land on a policy that is in the middle. I want to land on a policy that furthers what we want. But how do we do that? We have to do that by someone defining, the farthest edge, we can define for this. And then instead of moderating back from a moderate approach to a less moderate approach. 00:39:00Now we can go from a radical edge to a moderate, or, you know, much more progressive place. And if you can work your team, like, you know, people who have the passion and the desire for that farthest that we can reach place. They go for it, but also understand that that's not likely to be where we're going to land. Also know that on the other end. We're not going to land at your end of the really moderate side, either. We're going to be somewhere in between there. But when you're, you know, when you feel like passionate, you know, justice is on the line, there's a lot of tempers and a lot of passion and fire around all that.

APRIL WOLFORD

So navigating it though was not the easiest one time. They had a secret meeting without me and that was hard.

APRIL WOLFORD

I was like what I've been kicked out of the club. Oh, somebody told me I wasn't a good enough feminist, or good enough lesbian, which confused me a lot. Not sure how I meet the bar of that but I'll say that was really hurtful. I mean, it was somebody who I respected, but then after that I realized you know, she doesn't get to define that for me.

APRIL WOLFORD

So that was a liberating, but a difficult lesson too. I've told that before, I still am trying to figure out how I'm not a good enough lesbian, how you fail at that. Well, I guess the reason I fail at that is that I don't define myself as a lesbian, anymore. I mean, I define myself as queer. As a queer woman but not as a lesbian, so...

APRIL WOLFORD

So there, that guess I am a bad lesbian. But that, at least, is by choice.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

I'm glad you can laugh about it now because that's really kind of funny.

APRIL WOLFORD

It was, I got some gray hairs over it though. I had something after this sop, I had a patch of gray hair right there. I called it SOPP grey.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

So jumping back a little bit, you had mentioned the Take Back the Night March. Were you a participant in that?

APRIL WOLFORD

Yes. I was a part of a several Take Back the Night marches going to big ones in Columbus. I remember it being very empowering. There was something about literally being in the street as a group fighting for, you know, and in this strength, that was really motivating.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

I think we did one in Yellow Springs, even?

APRIL WOLFORD

Partly because Yellow Springs, as you know, is a very dark town. It's not good lighting and so is the campus. So I know thankfully, you guys have brought that to people's attention, but I actually have a one of our, one of our gift officers, trying to find funding is going to ask some donors for money to improve our lighting and safety stuff. Also, we want to fund it for sure.

APRIL WOLFORD

Yeah, so is there anything in particular you want to know about it, though? There was some things that went around with that that also got folded into the policy. One was self-defense.

APRIL WOLFORD

So there was a big push for people to take self-defense classes and that's kind of when that I felt like it morphed from, you know, a black belt in karate, to 00:43:00actual tactical fighting skills, right? Like and the I don't do, you know the model mugging programs. Like there's one in the Bay Area that was called the bay area model mugging class, but these are self-defense courses, where people dress up in padded suits and then they teach you how to, you know, if you're pinned what to do, work with your strengths, like one is really great. Like you can say, do you have? I have a bad knee and that makes me nervous in a situation. Well, here's some tactics you can use to overcome that are not you know, too... So, you know, you're fighting based on your strengths and that was included in the policy was a requirement that the college offer a self-defense class every quarter for students to take.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

So that was kind of a direct result of the marches then.

APRIL WOLFORD

Yeah.

APRIL WOLFORD

And also, I mean, did it, lighting, didn't make it in the policy but that would- but safety around campus was also a part of that. But yeah, that's self-defense definitely came. I think it came right out of that.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

So, the one I wanted to ask about was it happened Halloween night, that's what it seems like from The Record. I don't know if it was actually holding night, but it was like around the time of switching from October to November like right before the meeting in the women's center. So, were you a participant in that one where they started in Yellow Springs and then move to campus, or do you remember that one?

APRIL WOLFORD

Oh, that was the Yellow Springs Take Back the Night march.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Yes.

APRIL WOLFORD

Yes. Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay.

APRIL WOLFORD

Thinking of that. I- that's why I was like, I think we had one in Yellow Springs. Yes, that was the one that we did. Yes. They said that one. Yeah, we 00:45:00just we used to do a lot more activism with people in the village because there were a lot of lot of long time Civil Rights activists who lived in Yellow Springs. And so I mean, I remember going to protest, we went to one at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base against the war and we had these folks come and teach us, you know, what to do, how not to get arrested, how to get arrested, you know, who's there to take pictures and keep the... so those were big resources, then they were very active in that Take Back the Night march, too.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

So do you think there was a- once the women started drafting the policy, do you think there was like a sort of a cultural shift? As like your voices became more well-known as like, your goals became like more well known throughout the community. Do you think there was like, a cultural shift in that?

APRIL WOLFORD

There was- so early on there were- it was kind of a polarizing shift or a polarized shift where some people really got it and got on board with the affirmative consent and policy. Although at that time. Remember our first policy was very, I say I called it a political statement because it was a very strong statement about consent. But it was punitive. Like it was focused on punishment and because it was political, I believe, in nature, it really gave only a small number of remedies, because when we were talking again, this is a very, very emotionally charged situation. So, any kind of thought of, oh, if a rape of any sort has occurred, how could the remedy be anything but expulsion? It has to be 00:47:00expulsion. But then when you get into daily life you realize oh this community, communication happened on both sides. Like, you know, this was a very complex scenario in which these people were involved and it's not as cut and dry as a rape occurred. And so therefore expulsion is the thing. So I think in part because that statement ended up being there was a lot of fear on the part of men on campus in particular that, you know, if they didn't do something right, expulsion was the thing that's going to happen.

APRIL WOLFORD

So out of that kind of emerged this group called the Boneyard. Have you heard about the Boneyard? Did you read about the Boneyard? Okay. So I mean when you get further on you might want to talk to Bajea lives in town. I think his real name is Darren Gilley. But he was one of those people. Hopefully, he has nothing but shame to share with you about that now. Oh, are we recording? Shoot (laughs)

APRIL WOLFORD

Anyway, he and a fella Greg Powers, may he rest in peace, literally, founded this group called the Boneyard and then they were opposed to the policy. They were opposed to consent. They were holding up the banner for the old way of thinking about consent, that you know: how am I supposed to know if someone doesn't say 'no' what, you know, what am I supposed to do? And then the other side was again, this now sense of, we're hiring the advocate, we're going to hire a person who's really dedicated to making this work to bringing, you know, to furthering this cause and this kind of victory that we felt like we had. And so both kind of continued for a while on campus, Because by the time the media 00:49:00got there, the Boneyard still existed. And, of course, they wanted to talk to all of them and give them- even though there was a handful, I mean, like, less than 20 people and the vast majority of the student body, loved the programs that were emerging out of it. Still, they had, they got the attention because they have the negative perspective.

APRIL WOLFORD

So, so that's kind of how it shifted culture I'd say in both directions, but then after I'd say after that media frenzy was over, there was no more Boneyard. That everybody then was on board and there wasn't anybody there who was trying to cause trouble, which is one of the things I felt like they were really doing was being contrary. Just felt like, oh, these feminists are taking themselves too seriously and all this too seriously, and so, they felt they were being light-hearted about it.

APRIL WOLFORD

So in relation to the Boneyard, I just wanted to ask my own question. This 00:50:00really doesn't have anything to do with like the rest of the history, but was there a group of women called The Bushwhackers?

APRIL WOLFORD

I don't remember that.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

What I've heard

APRIL WOLFORD

Ask other women. Did somebody tell you?

ISABELLE JUNIPER

There was, I have heard from a student, whose father went here during the time. And he said that there was a group of, like more vocal lesbians, who would essentially. Like, I don't want to say "terrorized" men but, you know, they, they were very much like outspoken women's rights. You know, very much .

APRIL WOLFORD

I said interesting characterization. I mean, what I think is that that's part of 00:51:00the backlash that men felt about the Womyn of Antioch. I don't think any of them would have called themselves Bushwhackers, but there was- so, this comes to mind. After the policy was passed, it wasn't very long after that, that but first complaint came.

APRIL WOLFORD

And that was the first test of the policy. And Alan Guskin, who was, oh, by the way, another thing about him that I loved was that our attorneys had said, don't do this. You shouldn't have this policy because, you know, that's what the attorneys are supposed to say. Said, you know, we pay attorneys to give us their 00:52:00advice. We don't pay them to make decisions for us. We make decisions that are best for us. And so he did not, you know, he didn't, he chose the path that he felt was best. Which was not the same as the attorney's said. So another reason in my view, you know, that I had a lot of admiration for him around that. Because not... a lot of presidents would be conservative and feel like they're protecting the college.

APRIL WOLFORD

So anyway, this first incident occurred and he- there was- the policy called for like a four person hearing board. To hear the complaints. And that became very complicated. Actually, that was, we were like, really is this the first thing that's coming to us? But it was really, it was...

APRIL WOLFORD

It was not cut and dried about what had occurred. What kind of communication had occurred or didn't occur. And so and the the male involved in this was also from 00:53:00a different culture. And so there were cultural elements that we had not even factored into our thinking about this policy. And then he also got an attorney which was not something we were expecting.

APRIL WOLFORD

But in the course of that discussion, there were some women activists who were like writing 'rapist' on the walls, and feeling like, what they needed to do, was name the assailants. whether or not they were found to be in violation of a policy. That was one of the kind of the you no more extremes, you know, extreme perspectives or the more radical that you would, that you would write their 00:54:00names on the walls. So that- I think though that group sounds to me like what this guy's talking about, right? Like there was real fear among the men on campus that they would be labeled as a rapist without having an opportunity to have, you know, hear their side or have it even go through the process we had established. And I was very upset about that too because we had established a process. But when you know, there was- it was like is it really going to work the way we think it's going to work? Is it not going to work? And if they're not satisfied with the outcome of that situation would take it into their own hands.

APRIL WOLFORD

So that's what that sounds like to me that it might have been that group of women, but that they don't- like I said, I don't, I can't see them naming themselves Bushwhackers.

APRIL WOLFORD

Now.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Thank you that also definitely answers another question. I was going to ask as well about the like the first complaint under it. And so, do you think that first complaint with the person bringing in the attorney? Do you think that led to a greater strengthening of the SOPP after that happened?

APRIL WOLFORD

Absolutely.

APRIL WOLFORD

Absolutely, we knew at that time and the chair of the hearing board was Jewel Graham. Who was the- she was a professor of Law and social work at Antioch. She was a well-known social justice activist civil rights activist and a mentor to everyone. So she was the best person to put in charge of that, and then I got chastised from her in that meeting because I said, well, maybe the next person won't bring an attorney and she said, well, she said you're out of line. And I 00:56:00almost said it won't be the last time but I didn't say that.

APRIL WOLFORD

So, because that troubled me, right, that we had to kind of think that through because what rights do people have. And- but fortunately as I said Karen Hall came along and started redrafting the policy much more. And that was also the time we realized the punitive was not the way to go. That just being punitive was not going to solve this problem in the short term or the long term. That the only thing that was going to do that was prevention. And so we then shifted towards prevention programs and I believe that had a really remarkable effect and then I'll share one other story about that.

APRIL WOLFORD

So after the policy, so that was the first case or complaint heard under the 00:57:00official sexual offense policy. Then after Karen Hall wrote the next one. That's when it became known as the sexual offense prevention policy program because it was more, it was a program. And one of the one of the aspects of the program were peer educators and peer advocates. That's what they would known as. So the main position was known as the advocate and then there were peer advocates as well. And those folks, the job was to hear, you know, people could come to you, tell you about your experience, help, you know, what had happened, and what you want to do about that. They could have, you know, like the first option would be. Okay. Do you want to have a conversation with, you know, a mediated conversation with the person that you had this difficult interaction with which 00:58:00is more of what happened.

APRIL WOLFORD

So, the first, I was one of the peer advocates for the first round of them because we didn't have a lot of people who were trained under the policy at the time. So I knew the most and another student who was with me. So we had our first complaint that was filed in that year. I think that was the fall of like '91 because I graduated in 92 and and lo and behold it was a young man who filed the complaint. One of the very first complaints under the program and he wanted to have a conversation with his, you know, with the young woman that he had, had this awkward interaction with and it was- it was a remarkable experience. I will 00:59:00say that to me, that was one of the most rewarding experiences around the policy I had directly was the conversation that those two had was beautiful. They didn't understand, right? Like, I mean it was- there was a lot of stereotyping the young woman was like, I didn't even know men could feel that way. Because her stereotype of how men are around sex was a stereotype. And so she learned a lot in that situation. He got his voice in that situation and it was remarkable. And also my friend and I, we were doing the mediation with them were stunned by just- young people in general, don't have a lot of words or vocabulary to talk about intimate relationships. To talk about sex and their sexuality. I mean, 01:00:00that's a time you're learning how to think about yourself in relationship to others and your end, your own sexuality. And so there was a lot of like, well, how did it feel? Well, it was weird.

APRIL WOLFORD

And we were like so when you say weird what other words come to mind and you know, just helping them to find the words that name this it was weird, but it felt uncomfortable or you know, this tapped into some of these bad experiences that I had had or you know other things like that. So and it was really a very positive experience. And I felt really the power of that prevention model. Like I knew those two people were going to approach relationships very differently going forward after.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

So would you say then the reaction after that? Would you say then the reaction was mostly positive?

APRIL WOLFORD

From a lot of people. Yeah,

APRIL WOLFORD

The media frenzy I think galvanized the campus community more than anything else could have. Because they were so negative. You know, they came in there like, oh, you know, the administration is making you do this, aren't they? And the students were like, no. No, we're doing this voluntarily this is our policy. They're like, no. No, it can't be.

APRIL WOLFORD

And there was something, it was something about that that made everybody, I think, bonded closer together among themselves and also around the policy. So that was really the galvanizing force.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

I'm going to ask a few more questions. So the first one is I wanted to go back and discuss the community meeting with the women in black. I wanted to know like what set that up and how did you plan that you how to do meeting all the women plan that and like what was the reactions around that?

APRIL WOLFORD

Well, let's see how did that come to be? Well, we had been- trying to figure out when that is in the timeline- but, I think what inspired that was that there had been a lot of conversation about policy and what had happened to inspire it. But with a small group of people, so the women who were at the meeting, and then administrative council, were deeply involved, but other members of the community were not and so we, I believe organized that event so that the women could share their perspectives and you know, what was happening and what we have been 01:03:00talking about with the larger community.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

So what happened there? So they came dressed in black?

APRIL WOLFORD

There were quite a few as you can see from the photo quite a few people.

APRIL WOLFORD

One of the things that I remember from that is that they're, you know, my goal was to kind of create a safe space for the women who were there? And I remember, I had ground rules for community meetings as the facilitator for community meeting. But this time, you know, I made it clear that this was the cm's meeting and that we were going to be civil to each other or you were going to leave. And so what ended up that was kind of surprising is that we had first, a young male 01:04:00student stood up and asked a question and the women hissed at him. And I was taken aback. That was not what I was expecting. I did not. I absolutely expected that any hostility would come from the group and not from women, but I did turn around quickly and tell them that applied to them. Also, the rules that there would be no hissing people because we have to have a forum where we can engage in these questions and you're not going to get bring people along by shutting them down. So I turned right back around to that guy who had been pretty much silenced by the hissing that occurred, very intimidating sort of hissing that occurred and asked him to go far with his question. I said, let's engage around 01:05:00that. So, after that moment, I feel like the discussion was great. Because in part the people in the audience knew that they were also had a safe space to speak and so there could be an exchange that. And I feel like that was really important for getting others involved and onboard and supportive of the work that we were doing but it was super intense.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

That's really interesting because the letter from a certain person who wrote about the person being hissed at, did not include that part of you telling the other women to essentially hush up and that he could say his piece again. So that's very interesting that he that the narrative was switched on his part.

APRIL WOLFORD

Interesting. So that end up in the in the record.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Yes, in a letter from I forget who wrote it, but it was, one of the, it was one of the two, one of three. I think most vocal men about the policy

APRIL WOLFORD

who were in opposition to the policy. Yes.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Yeah. Or who seemed very much an opposition to the policy.

APRIL WOLFORD

The ideas that we were bringing forward. Okay. Well good. I'm glad that that is documented in there. But you're right, I mean that is too bad that that part didn't get included because it absolutely true was a safe space for people. And, you know, also not- didn't didn't win me any points with the women in black. That's for sure. But fortunately, I was not in it for points. That might have 01:07:00been that might have been the reason though that I was declared not a good enough feminist or lesbian. Who knows?

ISABELLE JUNIPER

So was that- do you remember like reactions, more reactions from the community from that meeting?

APRIL WOLFORD

I'm sure if I read that newspaper article, I'd remember a lot more just, you know, jog my memory around the stuff but I don't remember any other specifics.

APRIL WOLFORD

I remember, I do remember quite a few people spoke. I remember they were, I mean, part of the reason that they were hissed at was because you know, it was kind of a trope in a way. So a lot of the questions, although they were being asked in a genuine voice, it was a mockery. I mean, I wouldn't have permitted that. So that's really in a way where they were around thinking about it. But, 01:08:00you know, the questions were so sort of basic that you know, they didn't appreciate that. And that felt to me again, like, the important reason why we needed to do it was that we need to expose people to these ideas.

APRIL WOLFORD

If there are particular things in that newspaper article you want to, you know, you have questions about you when I asked me that might, I mean, that could probably jog memory.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

I could, I mean, I could also send you the article as well, if you would like it to. But I think I mean that printed that does like cover a lot of what I was going to ask about the community meeting. It was about that. Sorry when did that 01:09:00take place? Do you remember was that early like was that while the policy was like, still being drafted by ADCIL? So she wanted to bring in more people or was that when it was? Like closer to being adopted by ADCIL?

APRIL WOLFORD

What's the date on that newspaper article with those comments from the Antioch community?

ISABELLE JUNIPER

mean. I can find it. Actually. I should have it...Of course not I could...

APRIL WOLFORD

It was in, like, December. I thought it was before the policy was approved, but 01:10:00it had gone, but we were pretty far along. Well, mostly because it was moving so fast. All right, write a policy that big and kind of comprehensive two months is really unheard of. And then, now you've you helped frame it in time by saying. Yes, the meeting happened after the event occurred at the Halloween party and the meeting happened, not too long after that.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Yeah. I mean, I don't want to ask for like specific dates, but I want to see like if you think that community meeting changed attitudes at all, as well. If you think you'd reached people by doing the demonstrations and talking at community meeting.

APRIL WOLFORD

Yes. I think there were some people who were definitely moved by that. Now, again, there were people who were reacting- men reacting out of fear. And, but 01:11:00the majority of people, I think heard both sides and felt that, you know, it was reasonable.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

And so looking back on it was, do you think it was the policy was overall effective?

APRIL WOLFORD

Yes, very. As I said, you know about that first experience, especially when it became the sexual offense prevention policy, then that would make, it was exceptionally effective. Not only for the college, but the education programs were taken around the Miami Valley to high schools and other colleges. So, those messages of consent extended beyond the campus of and now, as you know, the 01:12:00there's a law in California around requiring affirmative consent and we've had a huge impact on the world. In the way, people think about consent. I wish that for the community now and I know that there's interest in that but that we could bring back some of those education programs because they were fun. They were so fun, you know, like who doesn't want to kind of act out those super awkward situations, where you find yourself in, add a little humor to it and give people some tools for, you know, feeling comfortable, and in those situations, and being true.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

I absolutely agree with you. And I know there weren't like the like skits and things like that when I was starting here, but my first year, it was very much like, a lot of the fourth years were very much serious about consent and we're 01:13:00very serious about like the SOPP. And like, there were numerous times where a fourth year would like step in if like one of like the younger years or like a first year or something like that. If like something was happening like something was happening at a party and so I do really appreciate the fourth years at when I started here, who had who did like really take this seriously and really did take a lot of students under their wing for it. And I do agree very much so that I think like they're definitely needs to be that aspect again because I do think like that even in the four years I've been here, I think there's been such like there has been kind of like, People don't talk about it like near as much as they did when I first started here. And so I definitely think some of that could be brought back and I think it would be a really big benefit for the college as well. Um, and so I just wanted to ask one last question. So we looking back on it. Was there anything you would have done differently?

APRIL WOLFORD

I don't think so. I mean, it feels to me, like it went a way that it was supposed to go and that it's not a story that you can tell yourself. It's a story that evolves and kind of unfolds in front of you. And so, you know, I felt like I walked as much as I could and it did, it changed the way that I approach leadership in general mostly because those are hard-won lessons around, you know, how to be a liaison, too how to be a bridge. But I even those difficult 01:15:00conversations and experiences. I treasure them for, you know, how they shaped me. So I don't think I would've done anything differently. I wish it hadn't been necessary. But since it was, I'm glad it was us that did it our way.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

And is there anything you would say or you would want for contemporary Antioch students, or do you think there's anything we should be discussing about consent?

APRIL WOLFORD

Well, yeah, so my journey around consent didn't stop at Antioch. It seemed to follow me. So when I was in the Bay area where I lived for 20 years, I was involved with a bunch of queer groups, including a group that I founded with 01:16:00another friend of mine, that was for, for queer youth. And part of the idea was we had we had social events and we had mentoring programs and a lot of really, really good stuff around that, but ultimately questions of consent emerged in that group. And so what I did was, I was like, well, I have some experience with this and so, I created what I called the code of conduct. So, here's how it's shifted in my mind. So it's the Antioch policy was about consent. So it was mainly focusing on, you know, well how to use your voice to advocate for yourself, but also in some ways attempting to define all of the bad behaviors, right?

APRIL WOLFORD

Like here's the definition of rape. Here's the definition of sexual assault. Here's the definition of all of these things. And then, but invariably people fall between the gray areas with that. So there's a challenge with that definition can't be comprehensive. It could never be comprehensive. And so what I switched was instead what we want is a certain kind of behavior from community members, where community members respect. And, you just start from the beginning, right with the most. So then you define the positive behaviors, that is your expectation and standard, and that if you do not hold that up, then you are in violation of this code. So it took the onus off of because there have 01:18:00been a lot of fighting since this consent discussion and active consent about, what are you saying yes to, where you're saying no to, and what are, you know, how does this behavior which, you know, is harmful behavior, but it can't be labeled under one of the labels in your policy.

APRIL WOLFORD

Then people are getting away with it and abusive people and predators are the ones who will exploit those gray areas for sure. And they're absolutely the ones you want to be catching in these policies because others will be influenced by education, right? Those who want to be good citizens are going to hear that information and adapt to change their lives and they're easy to work with. But the predators and abusers. They're the ones who are not, because they're not, they're going to find a way around those rules. So that was a direction and I wrote that for this group and then it was adopted by several other groups as 01:19:00well as their standard for behavior in a sense. So, to me, I feel like that would be a neat discussion to have with the Antioch community again. What is that a direction? What do we think about that? Is that, you know, is that the direction Antioch wants to go? Because we all struggle now with behaviors among community members. How- why do you treat custodians poorly? Why do you cheat each other or lie? Why do you allow your biases to influence the way you act toward people who are different than you are? And and so perhaps if we could cultivate that side we might cause another revolution.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

I agree with you. I think it'd be very important conversations to have on campus

APRIL WOLFORD

Well. I know you're interested in it. So as soon as I get a little bit of time, let's do it.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

I'm excited. Yes, I'm down for it

APRIL WOLFORD

Awesome, we can get Ariella involved to. I'm sure she'll be interested.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

I definitely think she would be. I think sometimes she- she's very open and very 01:20:00receptive to like discussing things like when I was- when I was writing like an article on the SOPP. Like I want to do like essentially like background and like how to file and like things like that. And I was like, can you look over this? Because like I want to make sure all the information is correct and she took like two weeks as you go. Sorry. I took so long. I was really pouring over it and I'm like, no, that's exactly what I wanted.

APRIL WOLFORD

Wow. Yeah, very thoughtful and conscientious person. I like Ariella a lot.

APRIL WOLFORD

So and I think sometimes she doesn't have a lot, you know, like a lot of support around creativity in the policy and I think it would be great to give her some direction, some input into where we can take this. I think it would be a fun conversation.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

So I think that's, I think that's everything. So I'm going to stop recording then.

APRIL WOLFORD

Okay, great.