John Hayes SOPP Oral History Interview

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Right, this is Isabelle Juniper recording John Hayes on November 4th. So to begin with, tell me about your early life and what brought you to Antioch.

JOHN HAYES

Hi. Thanks for having me today. My early life was, I grew up in Chicago. My parents were immigrants from Irish farms in the late 50s, and early 60s and moved to the United States to Chicago. Moved in with other relatives and to kind of start their lives there. So I what led me to Antioch was a high school friend, too. And his brother who had discovered Antioch and went to who enrolled there. Excuse me, and I think I had graduated by the time I ended up 00:01:00transferring to Antioch, but I had never heard of it before my friend explored it and enrolled and graduated. We went to, you know, private boys, catholic high school. And so I was kind of college prep in advance stuff and and my friend is a pretty radical guy. And so I heard about it through him. I went to visit him at campus why I don't remember. I think he may have graduated. I don't recall, but I went with my partner at the time and she was blown away. We were both really blown away. She transferred in year before I did. Then I transferred in and so ended up transferring into Antioch at about age 23 after I had been in undergrad, part-time in Chicago at a few different places for like five years.

JOHN HAYES

So I was at the time, I was probably one of a handful of older students on 00:02:00campus. At the time. I also had come to Antioch in part because I had been involved in campus politics at the commuter school that I was going to in student government as they called it back then and had held some positions there, in terms of student, advocacy and whatnot. So, I got it, you know, scholarship to Antioch as a student leader, from Chicago. It was one of the scholarship programs they had at the time. So I had a background, a very recent and active background in student activism on campus and it was about political causes per se. It was about student rights and student roles in campus life. So I wasn't part of the many political movements that were around in the late 80s, but mostly I was involved in student self-representation to campus administration. So, I had been familiar with dealing with administrators and bureaucracy. The campus I went to was something like 35,000 people, most of whom 00:03:00were commuters in the late 80s. I was a pretty liberal minded person at the time. So friends went to Antioch vouched for it, my partner at the time, went to Antioch- loved it. I had a background in student activism that was all over the place at Antioch and I could get a half-time scholarship and finally go to school full-time and finish, which was kind of nice. And it was, it was close enough to Chicago to where I couldn't imagine myself being able to still we get there and from, I was independent, at the time. I wasn't supported by my parents or anyone else. So like, you know, the Greyhound station in Springfield was how I first arrived the campus and so it was. Yeah, so it was. In fact, April Wolford, is the person who picked me up from there and that was first, the first 00:04:00time I ever met her was in her car, at the Springfield Greyhound station. I was like, oh my God, who is this person? I've never met anyone like this in my life. But she's still a friend and is fantastic, such a fantastic person that if for no other reason, I'm fortunate that I ran across Antioch because I got a chance to meet April, right? And she's been a huge influence in my life ever since. So, so that's my background before coming here.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Thank you. And what was campus like? Like when you got to Antioch, was it like a big shock from your previous experiences?

JOHN HAYES

Oh. Yeah. Dude. Completely. Completely. I mean abandoned buildings. I was completely blown away by that like when I came to visit. Also I was like, I was a very urban person at the time as a, as a white kid who was working middle class and I come from that kind of place, you know, like the nicer neighborhoods in Chicago stuff like that, but still, I never spent any time in the country. So I'm like country college, right? Whatever. There're abandoned buildings here. Oh 00:05:00my God, like what what's up with that? Like? Because that's usually a symbol of urban blight, right? Like abandoned buildings. Like that's not something that's you think is good and it was out in the countryside.

JOHN HAYES

So I thought at the time like Yellow Springs is lovely but it's not exactly like, you know, Chicago, you know, it's so it was a shock. It was a big shock. Also I got assigned like a small. Like a single in God, it's one of the campus buildings it's one of the dorm's still open.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Birch?

JOHN HAYES

Mmm. Yeah. Perchance the one usually reserved for upper years right now. Okay, and that was kind of a shock because that was like a very small like a horizontal phone booth kind of thing like and you know, had been, you know, living in an apartment since I was 20 with roommates and my own studio apartment in Chicago, so that was a shock. Um, and being surrounded by people who had very 00:06:00different sets of Life. Experiences. Mostly. Why? The very different like sets of life experiences than I had, you know, even as a white kid in Chicago, you're just going to have different urban experiences than the folks I ran across, and I was also paying my own way. So like economically, I was I think I lived on a credit card for most of the two years that I was at Antioch. So it was very shocking. Cool, shocking. It was good. People were surprisingly nice. And people were friendly, and the parties were off the hook and Halloween was crazy. And like the day after one Halloween, like a bunch of people went to a protest at Wright-Patt Air Force Base, I think, and someone, you know, woman went through the halls of Birch like banging on a frying pan to get people up after Halloween, like, you know, that's not something I thought people could do. You go to a protest like right after the giant campus party night. So it was cool. It was a shock, but it was very different.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

And do you remember any sort of like conversations around consent or anything that were happening at the time before the SOPP?

JOHN HAYES

That's a fantastic question. Thank you for it. The- I have a weird position relative to this history is...in answer to your question as a as a kind of regular student: no, however, I think by the time that all came about I was onto campus governance bodies, I was on Adcil at the time and I believe, and I was also the chair of the Community Standards Board, which at the time, I don't know if there's if it exists currently or if there's a version of it that exists currently.

JOHN HAYES

Okay, you know, at the time it was charged with it kind of adjudicating breaches of the kind of the group agreement on how we can- how we conduct ourselves, 00:08:00right? And that's where my interaction with this topic first came up came about. So no. No, it was not and it was something I thought that turned out to be not, just very nuanced, but very complicated for lay people, like the average persons to kind of understand clearly, as it turned out to be the case, you know, for 30 years.

JOHN HAYES

People are like what is this crap about saying yes, at every stage and all this other stuff like, but no, it was not a topic of conversation at all and I think that's one of the reasons why the women went all in on education and, you know, agreement at the time was that this was such revolutionary territory that we needed people to understand the depth of how important it was. And to some extent that was also driven by some other facts and circumstances on campus because I don't know if this is part of the general narrative or not, but Community Standards Board had someone bring a date rape to it and the woman who 00:09:00made the complaint and the guy who she said date raped her and the CSB expelled him. And I don't think that there had been any public disciplinary measures like that, in the little time I'd been on campus, let alone an expulsion, and for that charged of a topic. So, out of the complete blue for me as a person, as a student, you know, as someone who's on campus with people, I was part of an administrative group deciding that some guy committed a date rape. And he get expelled. Like that was my introduction to the consent conversation at Antioch.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Well, that's really, that's really incredible. So, when were you aware sort of 00:10:00besides the conversation? Because obviously, you had sort of a more intimate view with Community Standards Board. So, do you know about when, like, when you became aware of like conversations outside of that happening?

JOHN HAYES

Unfortunately, I don't have anything specific. I do, I do know. I know, I know various facts and circumstances, but nothing that was a kind of a light bulb moment or I recall a conversation with a person X. Again, partly, that's the amount of time that's gone by. I think also, it's because I had the privilege of being able to compartmentalize it bureaucratically, right? And also, too, to participate and show my support, as being kind of a willing participant in that bureaucracy, right? Which it sounds that sounds like the least sexy thing, like 00:11:00in the world. Like the willing participant in bureaucracy is an ally. Like, I mean, you know, to the extent to which I could is, as a young adult, that's the take that I took. I think partly, I was informed by my being involved in student governance in prior situations in prior years, but no, I don't have a kind of like, oh, wow, I never thought of this moment other than maybe the hearing the testimony in the CSB meetings with the survivor and with the the guy who did it, and the, you know, I don't remember how it went exactly, but I would say probably was somewhere in there, but not outside of that. I can't have this. I don't have a specific memory. I'm sorry.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Thank you. So were you a Community manager with April? Were you involved with like sort of any of the Take Back the Night Rallys? Or did you were you involved with like the Women's Center or any of that at all?

JOHN HAYES

Great, great. I think technically I was the Assistant Community Manager for one term and I focus, focus mostly on the business side with the Co-Community Manager, Dave Benson. So I wasn't like a CM. That's funny enough, I and two other people did run for Community Manager at some point but as a single kind of ticket, but so I was technically just an ACM for like a term, whatever quarter, semester, or whatever it was. That being said, I don't have specific memories of being involved in the Take Back the Night March. I don't have specific memories of the Women's Center. I know that at one point, someone said it was okay for me to go into the Women's Center, which is the only time that I entered it.

JOHN HAYES

And honestly that helped I will say this- that that space helped me frame kind 00:13:00of the perspective that I've taken to working for a long time. And so I'm cis white straight male, right? And English-speaking, educated the whole nine yards. What I do for a living and what I did to some extent in Antioch, what I do for a living now, as I work with nonprofit relations. And in most of them I'm also a guest in their space because I'm not part of the populations they serve. I may be the only person either on staff as a consultant who is in my demographic and being a guest in that space. Knowing that the Women's Center was a space by and for women to be together and to empower themselves, like I always thought that was very important to me. And then when that person allowed me to be a guest in that space, I was super about being a guest there and being grateful for that and that helped kind of inform my understanding of how to approach working with groups like ever since. So I don't remember who did that. And that was pretty much my only involvement with the Women's Center per se but I was deeply 00:14:00grateful for that invite and also just taught me so much that I've used ever since.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

So, were you? With along with that. So you said you weren't involved in it. What would you like? Where would you say you enter the picture?

JOHN HAYES

The, I mean, obviously I was a student on campus and I heard and heard all the things that students heard, about people receiving threatening notes, about people being upset and I suspected pretty strongly at the time that there was a pretty substantial amount of betrayal that a lot of women on campus felt. By 00:15:00probably how some of the male students responded to it. But that was just kind of me as a student. I think I entered the process, not the process. I entered the, you know, my sliver of history here, through being on CSB and hearing that date rape case and having CSB vote to expel that student. And that student getting expelled.

JOHN HAYES

And then somewhere in there, Adcil got involved as the Womyn of Antioch came to Adcil to demand change. I think actually, there's a picture that was in maybe one of the alumni magazines or something recently, of like, some of the women sitting across like a long conference table. Like it's all them on one wall. Maybe them standing behind our logo on the wall. Like I think I was on the other side of the table and that photo and it's not a good place to tell you say like, yeah, I was on the other side of the table opposite of the Womyn of Antioch, who are, you know, like. So that's why I try to put it terms of like I was a 00:16:00supportive ally as a bureaucratic tool, right? And then also, I did some scribing for a group of women who were working out policies and procedures that they wanted about this. I was taking minutes basically and writing notes in there in what used to be the union building, which I think now is like an asbestos bomb shack, right? Like it's-

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Pretty much.

JOHN HAYES

Yeah, right? That's where the cafeteria was. And then, like, behind the cafeteria. There was like, a little cafe space, it was open at night and I remember some meetings where it was with, and I'm I'm seeing their faces, I'm drawing blank total blank names. I'm terrible with names. I would take notes in minutes and draft those up to say like, because they would work out what kind of suggestions that they had, what kind of procedures they wanted for consent 00:17:00practices around on the administrative and campus and I would take notes and that was part of my being on Adcil, but also because you know, I was the chair of Community Standards Board. I thought this served kind of a three-way purpose, you know, one was to try to provide some allyship, you know, just to have been the administrative support, right? It's handy. Secondarily is, you know, as a member of Adcil, I thought it was important that, you know, someone participate in and be part of these conversations and then just as an anecdote just as an aside, like, yeah, I would be good to be there. And then thirdly is the chair of the CSB, like I had an active interest in the procedural mechanisms associated with campus discipline, you know, and how did I even end up on CSB? Frankly, I don't even remember how I got on. I'm not a I'm not a criminal justice person. 00:18:00I'm not, you know, I do finance for a living and I think maybe just my background and administrative procedures and stuff through student governance may have, it made me open to it. But so my entrance and kind of to this whole moment in history, it changed history, right? Is mostly through like administrative presence. That's it.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

If you remember what would you say like the sort of reactions from other students at this time were?

JOHN HAYES

So it was polarizing to put it at best. Some people got threatening notes taped on their door, men were upset. Women were vocally outraged that people could think this was okay. They were outraged someone could be expelled, you know date rape as a concept in like 1990, I don't even know where it was as a concept in 00:19:001990, but let alone as a traumatizing reality. But you know, this was a community of what 600 people in the middle of nowhere. Like how could something so aggressive and traumatizing be part of that community, right? So it was polarizing for a lot of people and traumatizing I'm sure for many of them. And it was hot. It was a hot-button topic and there were like, oh is this kid's parent's going to sue the school because we expelled him and, you know, how is that going to work? And that gets like the University (at the time) the campus administration and Al Guskin get involved. Because like, he may have actually been paying tuition. It sounds kind of weird, but I have a vague feeling that 00:20:00someone said he's actually a tuition paying student and his parents would sue the school so I don't remember.

JOHN HAYES

But it was very polarizing for a lot of people which I think also was surprising as well because, there are a lot of gender dynamics that were getting worked out just in general, you know, amongst the group of people who are between the ages of 16 and 25 right, in such a small and isolated place. You know, we had dorms that were specifically like for women and dorm hallways that were for older students and for coupled students and stuff like that.

JOHN HAYES

Like but held in the center that was a ton of developing gender and you know, orientation dynamics that, you know, to drop something so controversial and so traumatizing into the middle of it all is going to have its own kind of effects like, how could you think that, right? Or why would you think that? Like you can see that coming from both sides. It's not, I don't think, in my memory, my 00:21:00feeling of the time anyway, was that there was a lot of surprise by some of the dudes who- some of the men on campus, who did not kind of get down with being supportive, right? And that I alluded to that earlier that you know, my sense was is that there was some folks who felt betrayed by that and that would be pretty natural, right? To find out like your good friend acts- he's like, you know, like I can't believe they did that to that guy like, well, what do you mean like? He raped her. Right? She said, no. What do you mean you can't believe he did that to that guy, you know, that kind of thing. You know, that's not why people went to Antioch that I knew. People went to Antioch to go travel the world or to get a good education, go places that create, you know, leftist, go and stuff like that. They don't go to, I mean, they didn't at the time go to Antioch, to learn about, you know, sexual trauma, right? So it was very polarizing in my memory at least for my position of privilege at the time.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

And I want to ask you just because you were sort of out- You weren't involved in like the big picture you were you know, you had your own sliver. Do you remember like any of the like tactics or like demonstrations or anything like that the women did at the time?

JOHN HAYES

You know, it's very fuzzy and I would hesitate to to give you anything that's too recreated, unfortunately. What I can tell you though, is that I have very real memories of real pressure being on Adcil to make change. I don't know what Antioch's like now at all. So I won't presume but at the time like the students could get stuff done to within the context of certain kind of of parameters at the college that I think eventually they could not because which is why the university probably shut it down. But at the time, like, you know, students 00:23:00could accomplish something and there was a very real sense of pressure at Adcil because we had, you know, faculty on there. We had this, you know, the campus president, you know, Alan on there and myself. So we felt compelled to act and to respond anyway, so that if that's indicative of the types of protests or demands that took place that I can't recall unfortunately, and then that I feel very genuine about it. As someone who is in that room like and it's kind of weird to use that phrase. I want to acknowledge because so much of representation's about who's in the room and you know, someone like me should not necessarily be in the room in these kind of issues, but I was. But someone who was in the room that pressure was real, right? And not just because the 00:24:00women would be like, standing in the room like, looking at you across, you know, like 10 feet from you five feet from you, but because of the pressure that was created on campus for change. And just to polish, that thought up, Antioch at the time was responsive enough to a certain degree to student wishes and input. But also, it was enough of an institution to where the administration, generally speaking, feel pretty comfortable addressing your concerns as a student, but if they didn't really feel anything was note- merit worthy, they would find a way to mollify you and not do anything about it. So this was not like, oh the students want X like they did not, they would not have felt any compulsion to change had there not been real compelling pressure to do. So, the people that were involved in that created all of that. I wish I could remember more about the specifics, but I can't. But being on the receiving end of that pressure. I 00:25:00tell you it was real.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Do you think that your position on Adcil as an ally of the Womyn of Antioch, do you think that was helpful in getting it passed through the school?

JOHN HAYES

You know, if one thing occurs to me that I should clarify that the use of the word ally is on my part is an expression of an aspiration, right? On my part, I don't think I get to call myself an ally of a group or even individual. I don't think that that's my decision to make or a place to put myself. So that's not a praise that anybody ever used- well, people also didn't use that kind of talk back then, but that's not something anyone ever called me or anything else like that. So that was my expression of aspiration. So as someone who wanted to be an ally, I want to be mindful of my place in this dialogue.

JOHN HAYES

Yeah. I think it did. I think it did help pass it by Adcil. I was the chair of the group that threw that guy off campus for date rape, you know, I had a background in campus politics- not politics. In campus governance where I attended and participated and voted. I was, you know, at least on one tenure decision. At least I think I was involved as an Adcil member in tenure decisions for one period. I took notes for the meetings that the women had and again like I'm a hundred percent confident, it was many of the women, I cannot remember their names, kind of remember their faces, but I was doing that for them. So at one level. Yeah, I think it did. Also, I wasn't doing anything for my own self 00:27:00interest which is going to sound kind of a little odd, but it's... What I don't want to say is like, oh, it's a straight white guy like, this is okay because I think it's okay. That's not what I'm trying to imply there. That I had no skin in the game to be crass about it, you know, that their interests on the part of a lot of the parties, you know, about this and pro or con, right? Mine was exclusively to advocate for something for people who are trying to empower themselves in ways in which they hadn't been allowed to be empowered, and, you know, that I don't want to say too, has any value necessarily, but at least it's not a negative, right? Like people. Look at people who advocate for issues is serving their own interests in many cases. Certainly certainly my people in my community do. It's all the straight white dudes in the world are the ones who 00:28:00caused the trouble in my mind. So it's we look at advocates and say "oh this is for them and they want these things for themselves." So yeah, I think it did play an influence, not in influence. I think it helped getting Adcil passed, whatever, Adcil passed at the time. Also, you know, because it's so much work. Why so many people, like if you filter the things down into the kind of the roles that people play, like, all the work that all the women and the people supporting those protests did and all the work they did in developing the policies and the procedures and all the work that the campus and stuff did, like, the anybody who is willing to put in a hand, probably contributed, you know, equally or more than I did, right? So the more hands at the wheel, the faster, the wheel gets turned, right?

ISABELLE JUNIPER

And so it was when it was passed, do you? Do you think it was effective or do 00:29:00you think it helps to sort of prevent or help students?

JOHN HAYES

That is fantastic question. And this is where I'm going to question my memory in terms of the timelines. I graduated in late June in 1991, and it rained. And I was upset because we had to walk inside for the first time in forever. I didn't get to walk outside. But so, I remember hearing about this playing out, but I don't remember when it was implemented relative to when I left campus. And again, like April, my friend April, who we talked about earlier stayed close, even though she left the college. She did eventually go back to work on campus. So I would hear how things were playing out. But I also may, I may be remembering stuff that people were telling me at a time, like this is what we're telling students. They have to do like incoming students are given an orientation to X and Y. So, I don't remember what impact it may have had on 00:30:00campus in terms of its implementation or its cultural impact very clearly because I either wasn't there and I'm misremembering it. Or I'm conflating with other memories, or because it would have followed like naturally right after the fact that like the whole- because I remember it and the documents and other people can tell me I'm wrong and I would a hundred percent believe them that the policy was designed the policies and procedures were designed for implementation, right? Like they were like, you have to do this, you have to do that. Like, this is how you demonstrate active consent. And this is how you access active consent and in many ways like it was step-by-step way to empower 00:31:00oneself or to help empower somebody else with whom you're going to be intimate, right? So it's kind of a thing, like it's not like we the people to form, you know, wasn't least my memory of it, anyway, I don't recall that it was not so literary. If you will. That it would be difficult to imagine its implementation. So it was designed to be implemented. So I could be remembering conversations about like, how do we teach incoming students about this? Like, well you give it to 'em, you talk to 'em about it, you know? So I might be, I might be conflating a variety of different memories, but I think they're all facilitated by the fact that the policy procedure that I remember was designed to be used and anything that's designed to be used in my mind can sometimes get mixed up in memories of its use so that's why I'm probably not remembering it very well.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Okay, I think you for your honesty.

JOHN HAYES

And she left in 91 and spring of 91.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Was the media circus a big thing at the time?

JOHN HAYES

Around that time, you know, my memories of it are from media from off-campus. I moved to Seattle and I think I remember seeing like a magazine article someplace that someone pointed out to me and a newspaper. Maybe a newspaper article, you know about how and the general tone of it. My memory of it is again, I don't recall it. I remember seeing like the print on the page but not what it said was, you know, look at these crazy kids. Yeah. What the hell are they talking about kind of thing? Right? So I was not present for that and I was of enough of a distance from the campus and also from all the players that I wasn't necessarily a part of that either. In fact, you're the first person to ever ask me about it.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Wow

JOHN HAYES

Asides from April, yeah, which is a, which is exactly right, right? Like I 00:33:00should be completely forgotten in this narrative until someone is specializing in it, you know, for an academic reason it suddenly surfaces it's kinda like I found this like rusty doornail in an old drawer, like look at this like I think I'll talk to it for a little while, right? So, it's completely appropriate, that that no one has spoken with me about this, like ever. So I'd have no memory of the media circus, other than hearing that, there was a media circus. Again. I had a friend who went back to campus to work for the school and I would hear about it from them.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

So, do you remember anything you heard about it?

JOHN HAYES

Yeah, most of it was derogatory. Again, having been inside the room, all I could think of was like, what the hell are you talking about? But having been inside the room, you know, for the CSB hearing hearing that date rape situation like, 00:34:00yeah, I had a very different perspective on it. So when I would read something or hear something derogatory, I'd be like, frankly, I would have some kind of propane response to myself about what I was hearing and say, you know, they don't know. And, you know, also like the that's not uncommon response to people who empower themselves, right? I mean, at least that's what I understand it, right? People are dismissive of your interest and need to be empowered and don't take time to appreciate it. And I don't see how it applies to them or how its realistic. You know, it's your thing. So, mostly what I heard was derogatory and mostly I was so upset about it when I heard it.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Thank you. Do you think there are still conversations of consent that we should be having?

JOHN HAYES

Yeah, God, Jesus. I mean, sorry. I mean, so, let's walk it back. Like, you know, what was it? This was during, it's like right before the pandemic, like, the #metoo movement and Harvey Weinstein, you know, that predatory dirtbag. Bill Cosby the dude, who ran like the sex brainwashing cult, and the woman who's with him. The rapist from Stanford, who the bench judge was like "well, we don't want to ruin the rest of his life just because he raped a drunk unconscious person in an alley and was caught doing it" and gave him, like, six months of probation that happened out here not that long ago, and I apologize if I say, if I'm using things that are traumatizing and triggering, I'm sorry about that. But yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm sure at this point, you've heard.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Oh, yeah. No, I, there's, there's always like a little, you know, content 00:36:00warning. Like, when I archive these and they start transcribing them and everything. I do put a Content warning obviously, like on the big project but unlike each interview in general just because of like the things that we're talking about like in general. I think it's right that's implied. But yes, I do put a little for anybody else who might. I kind of assumed it was kind of a given. We're going to be talking about sexual assault.

JOHN HAYES

So hell yeah, there has to be, I mean, you know, the tools for empowerment are greater and also the tools for debasing people are greater. The UK recently- Is that the UK or Australia or someplace these stick? What the hell was it? Was basically, women being jabbed with hypodermic, needles and doped at clubs. 00:37:00Right. That was I think it's somewhere in the UK, might be in Australia or New Zealand or something like that. That was a thing. I read about that recently. So we moved on from roofieing people, you know, to like actually injecting them with needles like isolated places blah blah anecdotal evidence blah, blah. These things are all, they're all part of a spectrum of that. Yeah. That, you know, there are lots of conversations that still need to happen. I would a hundred percent support that active consent is I'm certain still a thing, you know, look at all the cases that I just described. Like, you know, you can't tell me that power has given up, right? I refuse to believe that irrespective of how many empowered women there are, and how many more tools they have for it. Look at the, and this is where I'm gonna get super pissed. Sorry. Look at the look at the Trump Administration. They reoriented the Office of Civil Rights in the Department of Justice to keep down campus survivors, who lodge protests and make 00:38:00complaints. They were going to put them through like a trial proceeding style hearings associated with their campus-based complaints. I have a friend who wanted to work for the Department of Justice and applied for a long time. I said, do you- would you do this? He's a feminist and a lawyer and all he goes, "Jesus, I hope I don't have to I don't know if I would want to work for them if I did." This was the goddamn federal government, right? So sorry, but so yeah, I think conversations are still needful. You know, if we can point to specific direct, specific, across different cultures across different opportunities examples of where consent is an issue, right? And efforts by larger institutions, to continually disempower women in those situations, you know, even the whole kind of narrative is still about like oh, you know she's in it 00:39:00for something. Like, there's nothing on Earth, I will ever believe, is enough of an incentive for a woman to put themselves through that process, right, in any manner that would mean anything other than somebody who's probably like a sociopath to start with. There are lots of conversations still need to be had. Obviously. I still have a lot of emotion about it.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Thank you. Do you think you're being at Antioch at the time influenced your post Antioch life in regards to consent and sexual offenses and things like that?

JOHN HAYES

Yeah, a ton. Thank you. A ton. Like I may have mentioned earlier. I'm a straight person. So I ended up interestingly enough. I ended up working in San Francisco after undergrad. Little ways about six, seven years later and ended up working in the Castro, which is the big, which is the big gay neighborhood in San 00:40:00Francisco. And I was the only straight person there at this organization I worked at, and I had had so much training either training through exposure or training just through of being driven through the process of consent that the When the organization I was working with had to start trying to define because they also- it was really common in the Castro at the time. I worked in HIV prevention organization, right? Not in the public health arm, but in HIV prevention organizations in the Castro in the 90s and prior porn played a role, like, gay porn played a role. Gay porn producers were supporters of events and prevention efforts, even though the whole condom thing was kind of difficult for them to get a hold of. So, there was constantly porn in these- like, at work for people, like, gay porn, like hardcore magazines and stuff like that because the 00:41:00is so you can incorporate these and outreach materials or you had to find like the artist who could produce stuff. So, I went to work at a place where the majority population served was also the majority of population employees where sexualized content was a regular part of many of their work lives, right? So the opportunity for inappropriate, sexual behavior was off the hook, right? If you think about it, and this is again me like little 28 year old, whatever straight dude working at this place and I was so keenly aware of that. And because of having been in Antioch and surrounded by feminists, who were empowering themselves and trying to change the world, that I remember distinctly saying, like, should we see, you know, like, tell people there's certain ways to behave and not behave like at work, you know, like because there's porn all over the 00:42:00place and since I'm not part of the gay community, I'm very mindful of when I'm a guest in the space that it's not appropriate for me to kind of use culturally appropriate language, or then, you know, mannerisms or things like that. But you know, as it was described to me, you know, at the time, like we take a lot of liberties with each other in terms of jokes and behaviors and stuff like that. And I said, cool. I can't- no opinion about that. But, you know, with along, since there is going to be porn as part of our outreach materials to like, should we talk about that? Like, what's appropriate at work? And that's just like, that's just work example, right?

JOHN HAYES

And many years after the fact, the things that I picked up from working, or from being at Antioch, at that particular time, obviously it in for my own personal relationships as well long-term and short-term ones. It's clearly left an impact on me on how I view consent and sexual assault and survivors and then change, you know, like like Yeah, I mean, it sounds like I'm cataloging like sexual 00:43:00trauma and that's not my intent there. But like, I don't keep like a list. But, you know, these things matter, like, it became like an issue for me after having been at Antioch and at that level. Like, well, I mean, I suppose at that level, I remain somebody who wants to be an ally and, and I think that's because of having been there. And also, even though I don't maybe recall, many of their names or many of the things that happened like, it's, this is going to sound kind of a little off topic but it's not.

JOHN HAYES

The other impact that that had on me at the time in terms of my subsequent viewing of consent was the tremendous role models all those women for me, right? Like it's maybe it's a little contradictory to say, like someone's a role model for you, but you don't remember their name or, you know, like what they did 00:44:00specifically, but I always remember them standing right? For one. And that's a kind of a powerful image, you know, of people present, right? And, you know, representing themselves without hesitation, even if they were nervous or afraid or even if they weren't nervous or afraid and they were just bold as hell. You know, that's modeling behavior that I wanted to see in myself and others, right? And that made an impact on me. Which is kind of, its kind of weird. Like, in that sense, I would say, since I was already an adult at the time, you know, obviously got older, they were kind of a, I don't want to say archetypal, but I found a founding kind of concept in my early adulthood, you know, the whole "be 00:45:00the change you want to..." you know "be afraid to die" Horace Mann thing. Be the change you want to see in the universe all that other stuff like this. That's what they were, right? And that's- Antioch was my first-ever exposure to like a real liberal arts or liberal politics environment. So, I went from being a nobody, being like a campus governance person to being in this kind of hotbed of radical politicization of the personal represented by these individuals. And then I would go on to live the rest of my life, kind of charged with the idea of changing things for the better for other people. So that's not necessarily about consent but it's made a real significant impression on me and I think it's one that I still feel really clearly.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Thank you for that. That's really appreciated. So this is sort of a question I 00:46:00throw out as well for my own personal interest in just in for the record as well. Do you have any advice or sort of like things you want to say to like current or like future Antiochians?

JOHN HAYES

Thank you. That's a great question. The first thing I want to also acknowledge there is that like I bet Antioch alumni who are in my bracket are older? Because I'm in my mid-50s now have zero problem telling students to- giving students advice, right? Like from what I could, what little I've seen so far, has been that alumni are accomplished very smart interested people and way up into their own stuff, right? Which is whatever it is, like you host a co-op student. That's great. You know, so I want to I want to caveat here is that like I would never presume to give advice if I were not asked for some insight. Because I'm sure 00:47:00that there's plenty of advice available for free unbidden to plenty of Antiochians, right? From a place of real comfort and certitude to it about what those alumni believe and think is right. So that being said, now I do and I'm being a little facetious. I mean, I know some of my best friends are alumni. Many of my best closest friends are still people and that they are still. So I'm being a little facetious about it. But you did ask.

JOHN HAYES

Like I try to think about when I when I went to Antioch, I was 23. I'd been living with women and my partners at the time, you know, I'd had jobs, I'd been out of the house for forever. I considered myself sexually experienced to the degree which I was at the time, you know, even if I'd never never seen a night sky without light pollution. That was the other thing about when I first went to Antioch, I thought, "oh my god does the sky look like this?" But like, oh, wow, 00:48:00like yeah, John always like this. So, I would try to think about like, okay, what, what would someone like me tell me right at the time. And I can't imagine that scenario like to some extent because people are going to Antioch, nowadays are going to be savvy in such radically different ways than I was at the time that it would be difficult to transcribe that kind of advice.

JOHN HAYES

So I'm kind of imagining myself speaking to someone in my demographic like, you know, someone who's a slightly older than typical college background, who hasn't been around a lot of funky radical people, but who's a straight guy, a white guy and a cis guy and I would probably say let something like, "don't think you know what you're going to know. Think about what you need to know before you need to 00:49:00know it." You're going to think you got it all in hand, right, but like, until the situation presents itself, you're not going to know what to do. Unless you've really thought about it and the moment of achieving sexual consent and during a point of intimacy with somebody which is like the weirdest fucking thing in the world to like say it's a phrase, right? Like achieving centering the point of intimacy. Like I think I wrote that on paper like 30 years ago, right? Like, you're going to be in the moment with somebody and they're not going to be into what you're into and you're going to need to know how to react, right? And you're going to think about it in advance, or it's going to go all kinds of fucking way sideways, right?

JOHN HAYES

And that's honestly, that's what I would tell me. You know, that's what I would tell somebody who asked me advice. I think by definition, anybody asked me for my input or something like that, would expect to hear something like that from 00:50:00me. So that's kind of like an audience, like a message delivered to a specific audience. But in the context of this, this topic, like, you know, think about it beforehand, you do not want to be in the moment where you're presented with something you don't know how to handle. And that's what it all was all about, right? It was what it was all about. Like avoiding those things that no one can handle.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Thank you for that. Do you have any other thoughts, anything else to say to add to the interview?

JOHN HAYES

Well, first off, I want to say thank you to you and whoever your collaborators and, you know, supporters are for doing this. I've thought it was, you know, it's easy to say this, you know, because I haven't done anything about it, but I think this is a very important project. And intermittently over the years April and I would talk about that like, oh does anybody do this? And I think in the 00:51:00alumni magazine, like last year, like the topic came out again, and I think, if I remember correctly, it had it had a version of the policy with handwritten notes on it. And I believe that's April's handwriting, and I sent her a message. I'm like, hey, that's you, right? Like this is your stuff, right? She's like, yeah, it is! Because she championed it after she returned to campus, and she was there after I left and stuff. So, I want to say thank you to your collaborators and to you, and to your colleagues and your supporters for doing this. And there's the specific reason for that is women's history is really easy to forget from what I understand.

JOHN HAYES

For example, I worked at a place for a little while. Where they had a large archive of local, lesbian political memorabilia. Photos, and bumper stickers and 00:52:00newspaper articles, and a whole bunch of stuff, right? Enough so that they'd have it informally archived by like, interns a couple times. And, you know, I asked one of my co-workers there who is lesbian, I was like, shouldn't this go to like the Historical Society or something like shouldn't this go, you know, someplace that can archive it and preserve it and you know for the future and present it to and make it available to the public and curate it, and all that stuff? And she's like, yeah, there are only four lesbian history archives in the country. I was like, wow, and I don't know if this is accurate or not, but she was very politically involved in the local kind of lgbtq and movement lesbian groups and stuff. And so yeah, I took what she said as true. I was like you're kidding me, really? look and look at it like that. I was referring to women's history of the examples I'm able to give out specifically, about kind of lesbian 00:53:00history. But like, as I understand it, lesbian bars across the country have been closing at a really rapid rate, particularly with the pandemic. I think there was one in Dayton to close recently. Maybe I don't know it myself. Yeah,

ISABELLE JUNIPER

I think there's one in Columbus, which is also like one of the last remaining in the country.

JOHN HAYES

That's right. Yeah. So if we, and you know, it's not exactly an equivalence to say like, you know, lesbian histories examples of being a preserved mirror women's because that's not the case, clearly. But, you know, radical feminist stuff like stuff that actually has a right to the word, you know, feminist that doesn't exclude trans people. Those things are hard to keep archived, clearly. you know, this is more than just some, the SOPP is more than just some kind of handbook to not rape somebody, you know, it's a an important part of the empowerment of specific group of people in a specific place that has had legacy. 00:54:00And if your work on this will help provide any kind of legacy for it, like then that's awesome. And I'm really grateful for you're doing that and I'm kind of a little ashamed that I didn't do anything in the past to try to do something about it. Like, like, can I write somebody a check? Look at my- this is my boujee coming out here. Can I write you a check to have you do this, please? Right sure, John, you can do that.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

The school writes the checks right now, unfortunately.

JOHN HAYES

But that's the thing I wanted to get across is women's history. History isn't just American history. Women's history isn't just anything. It's specifically excluded in many ways and always at risk of being lost. And I look at this as being a history specific to women's history. Again, outsider not a party. Not 00:55:00invited, shouldn't be in the room and I'm just super glad like you are, people like you are in a room. Thank you for doing this.

ISABELLE JUNIPER

Of course. Thank you. So I think I'll go ahead and stop the recording now.