Heidi Arnold Interview

Heidi Arnold: Hi

Mary Evans: Hello

Heidi Arnold: Hi

Mary Evans: So I'm gonna um ask you um to say your name and your title and then we'll just go and go in from there?

Heidi Arnold: Okay.

Mary Evans: Okay, So who are you?

Heidi Arnold: Uh my name is professor Heidi Arnold and I teach communication

Mary Evans: And I met you while I was incarcerated at Dayton correctional institution you were part of the advanced job training program sinclair community college offers through the ohio department of correction and rehabilitation what made you kind of lean towards teaching incarcerated individuals?

Heidi Arnold: I have had an inkling that I wanted to do this for years and years but a few years before I had the opportunity I had a neighbor who became incarcerated long story short and my brain was blown about what it means to be 00:01:00an incarcerated person and I liked him I was loyal to him I visited him he was an older gentleman a great neighbor to me and that's when my wheels started to turn about how I wanted to help or if I could.

Mary Evans: So how long um did you have a teaching career on the inside?

Heidi Arnold: Um I started in the fall of 2011. or 10. I can't remember.

Mary Evans: Almost 10 years um what do you think is there any differences between incarcerated students and then students that are not incarcerated on campus? and if there are any differences what do you think they are?

Heidi Arnold: Uh my first instinct is to say no people are the same no matter where they are however uh if we dig a little deeper into that I think that at 00:02:00least the women because that's where I have my experience the women um have a stronger. A bit of a stronger desire as a whole to have an education not that people I teach downtown in the regular setting don't have a desire but it's much stronger on the inside because they know that it can help them on the outside to gain employment to have a higher income to be civically minded to be all of those things and I think there is a a ribbon that runs through most of the women who are incarcerated at least where I was and that is trauma and so they're coming from a place of trauma and so when they meet the material, they meet the course information they see it differently they experience it a little bit differently than the the whole of my class I mean there may be somebody in my regular you know outside class that has trauma and experiences that way but not everybody and on the inside I feel like it's most everybody right

Mary Evans: Um you're my communications professor and um I loved every bit of it. It made me think about um culture and community and just everything and like how we talk to people and what different phrases and different things mean and it was very you know very very impactful um to me furthering my education and getting the degree that I got with a little bit of background in journalism you need that communications part of it um was there any other courses that you thought about teaching other than communications or any other courses that you think um some of the women might have benefited from that was not offered by your institution?

Heidi Arnold: Uh I think all of them are valuable but I'm a little bit biased I think interpersonal is probably the most important one a little further down the road I think public speaking would be fantastic because we know that if you want to climb the ladder at all whether corporately or socially just having a few public speaking skills can help you even if you don't love it you don't have to raise your hand and say I want to be the person it can just push you forward um 00:04:00I think nonverbal communication is very strong and nonverbal communication on the inside is different than it is on the outside there's some added levels of non-verbal and I think that could be valuable uh small group communication is another one that I think is really valuable working with two or three or four or ten other people it's really hard and I think when you're in an environment like prison where you're already crowded together you're in a cell with other women you're in a unit with other women I mean you're close to each other some of those small group communication skills would be super valuable I love intercultural communication and it's not just about countries it's not just about race it's about ways of thinking it's about socioeconomic class it's about sexual orientation it's religion it's everything so I mean I would vote for any of them.

Mary Evans: Right I think furthering my education um has definitely helped me stay out of prison um and you know that's another point that I'm trying to prove is you know with furthering your education I think that that reduces recidivism rates um what is your opinion on that? You've seen um people come and go but usually the ones that complete the class have you seen complete classes and actually graduate. Have you actually seen them return um in higher numbers or do you actually see more success rates for those to actually complete or get out of the institution that they're in and then complete the study program that they were taking?

Heidi Arnold: Um the research says that with education there is less recidivism and it's proven number I think m experience shows the very same thing I have seen a few people go back in uh not very many most of those people went back in 00:06:00because they were stuck in the people places and things of their past and they didn't have th opportunity to get out of that and certainly I think education not only reduces recidivism but as I said it increase income it reduces unemployment it gives more political engagement more civic engagement more volunteering hopefully an increase in some health opportunities and some better outcomes for health so you know all the things that education does for anyone is certainly beneficial for someone behind the fence but certainly just staying out of there and having an opportunity to get a job that might be more than minimum wage so that you can you know find a place to live and overcome all those challenges and barriers I mean education is going to help you no matter what.

Mary Evans: Right and I think a lot of people might be misconstrued to um that incarcerated individuals may be getting different kind of assignments than you know people in the free world and I tell them all the time I feel like it was 00:07:00equal assignments um the same material you know I mean just a different setting um do you um could you clarify any of those things?

Heidi Arnold: For me it is exactly the same uh I do have to make some adjustments sometimes on the inside because we don't have the same kinds of things in access to the internet or to videos or to some assignments but I work very hard to make it as close to the the rigor of the regular classroom as I can I can't speak for other teacher but I do.

Mary Evans: Right and you know it's unfortunate that um the institution doesn't allow access to certain things you know prior to um even signing up to sinclair I had always had a fascination with technology and you know with my length of sentence that I had served I was like I have to keep up with these things and so it was important for me to get that user support you know technician 00:08:00certification and and learn more about computers and know how you know the ins and out of them but when you take that class you don't really get the same experience that you would get if you were on campus because of the limited access they don't really want you to have access to um internet or you know different firewalls I mean we couldn't even see if what we were building would even work because of the limited access and I think you know that sometimes hinders um the learning that hinders the the learning of the program that you're trying to do and then also too it takes away from um the practicum or getting you ready for employment because you don't really have the same field experience um do you think that there's like ways that maybe they could come up with something or have you ever thought about you know what would it be like for them to come up with like some kind of protective um you know access to internet or access these things so then that way you know incarcerated individuals are getting hands-on opportunities as well

Heidi Arnold: I one hundred percent agree with you Mary that it pulls you back in so many ways and technology is certainly the first um I don't know all the 00:09:00ins and outs of security so I don't really know what I'd be working against but I know there are people who've been thinking about that people who've been trying sort of an inside out program where at least people on the outside could work you know the systems that you put together and you can see how it goes I think the more of that we do the better we are as a society as a community because when you come out then you have those skills and you have the understanding and you don't have to smash up against that learning curve and be told no because you don't know what you're doing. I think people on the inside are developmentally frozen in so many ways so many ways interpersonally, relationally, every way and certainly you know with our education and um with our understanding of the technology of the world so we've got to loosen something up if we want these people who are coming out in droves into our 00:10:00communities into the community to be a part of us and to be successful.

Mary Evans: Right what I've learned um especially in like some of the groups that I've been in I was around a lot of the same women we took a lot of the same classes and a lot of the same extracurricular programs we're a lot like we're kinesthetic learners we learn as we do and that's why I was so grateful about antioch you know because of the co-op that they offer you actually get that real full you know full-time employment experience for a whole semester and then you're still studying that major while you're doing that and it was kind of like it was like a vocational type of thing if you will and I think that if you know looking back now if that was a if there was a way that sinclair could have been better funded to offer those kinds of um you know opportunities I know different it's not really so much sinclair as it is the institution that sinclair's inside and their safety regulations and all that stuff um you know at ohio reformatory for women orw Marysville it's a lot more lenient and they have a lot more 00:11:00programs through sinclair as where Dayton correctional only has so many I think a higher reformatory for women they have like the the culinary arts um the baking and you know these women can come out with so many different um certifications that they only need like two or three semesters of um school on the in the free world and then they've got an associate's degree and I think it's amazing and regulations are changing and you're allowed to go back to get those degrees now you know there was a hiatus in funding pooled I'm used to be able to get a bachelor's and sometimes a master's while you're incarcerated and then the funding got pulled from that and so that it left you know certificate programs and then Columbus State was involved and then they lost funding I know it's a whole process but how hard is it for an institution like sinclair or college to you know even start that process?

Heidi Arnold: I don't know I know it's been talked about it's been mentioned I think it takes the right combination of people and the people who are coordinating those courses the people who are the liaison with sinclair to really want it but you know I'm the teacher I go in uh kind of head down I don't know I'm not the one moving and shaking at the top but certainly it could happen I mean this is what we do in education we turn the cranks and we make things happen and I think we forget sometimes that people on the inside we can't just brush them under the rug we can't just be quiet about them we can't think that they don't exist because they're coming back into our lives and I-it makes me think about um this african proverb that says if you want to go fast go alone and if you want to go far you go together and I think we have to go together we have to have the administration of the prisons we have to have the 00:13:00administration of the schools working together to produce those people as they come out into our communities to work with us and to help us and to be a part of you know society all over again.

Mary Evans: Right so what was I'm going to ask you what was some of your most memorable moments with students like when did you really like when there's some what are some examples of you not regret I wouldn't say regretting but really being like this is this is what I'm supposed to be doing like can you give us some examples of that wow there's a lot um a lot happens in the classroom like when somebody has what I call a light bulb moment where they read a chapter or they you know hear some discussion and they're like oh my gosh that's why I'm like this so that's why my brother treated me like that that is always rewarding what I really really love is when I touch base with somebody in my class then I have some connection you know when you have that interpersonal sort of magnetism 00:14:00that you feel with somebody and then I run into them again sometimes it's on the inside you know years later I just happen to be walking by and I'm like aren't you so and so and they remember things that we talked about in class that's a high for me and more critically is when I run into somebody on the outside when I'm connected to somebody who's out who's successful who's working um I don't even care if they remember the communication concepts I'm just excited for them to be doing well to have a job to be you know in love to be owning a house to be getting a car whatever it is um that makes it all worth it for me.

Heidi Arnold: You've seen a lot of my first when I returned and I'm so grateful for the relationship that you and I have another question I have for you too is um you know looking back um do you think that you would want to go inside a men's prison um and work with men too and um do you think that there would be different contrasts and different approaches to your method working with men and women and why do you think that would have to be considering this we probably 00:15:00had trauma too you know.

Mary Evans: Yeah absolutely certainly ha I would not pass up that opportunity um to go in especially now that I feel more comfortable and I know what you know kind of what's going on I've also met some men in the re-entry process who have come out and they're delightful so I certainly wouldn't say no to that opportunity I do think they're different and what I hear from other people is um men kind of you know push ahead shoulder to the grindstone get the work done maybe not building relationships quite as much as women do you know we tend to have that more expressive communication style um so I would assume there are differences on the inside with men you know their job opportunities are different when they get out because they have muscle because they have labor you 00:16:00know they're more likely to get jobs they're not the sole keeper of their children and so there are some advantages to them coming out and finding opportunities but I certainly think that on the inside you know they would probably run up against the same aha moments that some of these women have maybe they would be a little more quiet about it maybe they would write it down instead right um but you know people are people I mean men and women are different we know that but man just people are people and it doesn't matter where you are it doesn't matter what you wear it doesn't matter what language you speak it doesn't matter behind bars I mean in the end we all have the same needs for um you know basic survival and for love and respect and recognition.

Heidi Arnold: Right I think um for me I the stipulation um and the waiting game that you have to put yourself through to further your education is you know just 00:17:00exhausting and it's like for me I don't understand how anyone could think that those stipulations are okay it's like if I have a 20-year if I have a 25-year sentence I pretty much have to do 20 years in prison before I'm even eligible to further my education now let's say I come in there with a college degree you see that a lot of times do you see women came in they were you know a professional career you know hundred thousand dollars uh a year salaries and stuff like that and they come in the you know unfortunate circumstances they have a 25 to life sentence they have to do 20 years before they're allowed to further their education or even be an asset to the education department and it's like you have someone who already has an education there's a tutor you have someone who has this lengthy sentence so let them go ahead and go through all the curriculums and then you have people that can help and there's you know that's one of the things that um lacks when you're on the inside is like an academic advisor or 00:18:00just having access to tutors you know when you're on the inside you gotta wait until that next time you see your professor or someone in the class that might actually get what's going on to like help you but then if you're not in the same building or unit as that person you know to meet with that person's hard trying to get in the light you know trying to get the library the same times hard just depending on the institution and the movement and all that stuff and I just think you know like looking looking back I wish that there was a way that people you know didn't have to wait because they could have been an asset to me that could have been access for me you know like there's so many intelligent women that have you can write books and you know like kept taking communications and stuff like that and would have been so great over there in that department helping people like myself that kind of like struggled with just like basic grammar things you know what I mean and um I think it's like unfortunate um how do you feel about that I feel like it would be hard to deinstitutionalize a 00:19:0020-year-old institutionalized mind within five years and then try to prepare them for parole and then prepare them for reintegration and then expect them to keep up with their studies I just think that's just too much to put on someone's mental.

Mary Evans: Yeah that develop developmentally frozen aspect happens can happen in a year it doesn't take 20 for that to happen and I know people who've been in for a year and get out and they are a wreck and it's only been 12 months so imagine someone's there 20. Unfortunately I think people don't understand Mary because I don't know however many years ago 20-25 years ago I had that feeling I believed that people who were in prison shouldn't have an education they shouldn't be able to watch tv they shouldn't be able to write letters home I was really like I just didn't understand I didn't get it I didn't know anybody in the system and I thought everybody in there had done some awful horrible thing I didn't understand that the justice system isn't really just and so I think the 00:20:00key to getting people to understand that is meeting a person reading of a person's story interacting with somebody like you and then they go oh like I did when my neighbor went to prison I was like wait wait wait this is my friend this is my neighbor and of course I want him to have visitors because one of them's gonna be me I want him to have education I want him to be able to have a job and work outside if that's what he wants to do um I think people just don't know they're ignorant of what it means to be a human on the inside and I think that's where we have to sort of drop the curtain and and show people who they are in order for that you know idea of waiting to the five-year mark to change right I mean it's just like you said you you know you you had it's like you never know who it might be you know and a lot of times people do things and they just don't 00:21:00get caught you know what I mean and it's unfortunate when they do but you know that's I think that's I think I've broken a lot of stereotypes especially you know as as loving and liberal as yellow springs wants to be you know a lot of people still have you know question you know well is she going to go back or is she going to turn back you know and you know it's crazy now I go out there and it's like a whole different energy because I've not went back and I didn't get into trouble and I graduated and I furthered my education and I kept education the focus because that's what worked for me like a lot of individuals I was incarcerated with ones that you know personally just like I do you know education was the forefront because that was something that we were good at before we started getting in trouble you know so it was like that was like a comforting thing for us and there there's women in there who you know have these lengthy sentences that we just mentioned and that was the comfort for them and they're still not able to have that comfort because they're still waiting to 00:22:00reach that deadline to where okay I have five years to the parole board and I and you know and I can go to school but it's like you got five years to prepare yourself a lot of women go in older have lost a lot of family they have no one to go back home to and to find a home plan you know to get into these halfway houses they want you to be physically able to get a job and do all these things and a lot of women you know are elders like these sentences and I think it's unfortunate that you know that's that's what it's came to that they're elders and still fighting to get an education or to go to college or to have something to do to show the parole board that they actually did something.

Heidi Arnold: Right I think a lot of it's about trust too because like you're experiencing people were like oh Mary she's nice but I don't want to totally 00:23:00trust her and now they trust you they see that you're reliable that you go forward that you're going to follow through with what you say you're going to do and I think a lot of people on the outside just are like like employers you know they don't want to trust and on the inside you're right I'm thinking about those lifers those people who have a something to life sentence every single one that has ever come into my classroom are top-notch students Marry every single one and I don't know if that's because they've been sitting there so long waiting and they're anticipating or if they're just deep thinkers if they have they're not fighting the system as much I don't know what it is but they are brilliant thinkers good writers um great learners every single one I've had.

Mary Evans: Yeah that's the point it's like you know I mean like you said maybe they had it all along or maybe maybe it took that to get to that but however they have that and they have that with inside them and I think they should have 00:24:00the opportunity just like someone who's coming in you know for a year or so have the opportunity to do that if that's what it takes for them to rehabilitate their self it's not like they pretty much set you up this nice little curriculum and they're like okay here this is what you do I mean I had to do a lot of that stuff myself I had to like sneak and you know thank god for a lot of the Antioch students I would write my stuff down they would type my papers for me my s you know what I mean like it would and I felt like for someone who's trying to better themselves I should not have had to went through all those things just to try to apply to another university after I was leaving you know what I mean like doing something different caused so much you know stress and havoc on me and then people I was stressing people out because I was like I don't want you to get caught mailing a letter and I mean it was that simple as like mailing a letter simply asking the college for an application could have gotten me and that person in trouble and it's like I'm just trying to better myself these 00:25:00people won't do it so who's going to do it and I think that's where a lot of people get it mixed they get it mixed up too they think you go to prison and it's all these people trying to help you and trying to get all these stuff done and so when you come out and you're not together then it's not your fault well it's your fault it's not their fault you're like you have no idea how many times I've sent a kite to my case manager asking for groups like then I just started taking like I started being like the older the like the anitas of the world I started going to groups and like crashing groups like even if I wasn't on the sign-in sheet or whatever I would just go until they put me on the sign-in cheat because I'm showing up like that I had and I was sad that I had to do that to like better myself but it was something that I had to do

Heidi Arnold: And all of that is connected to hope as I hear you talk I'm thinking about every single person needs hope every day we need a little something to keep us going and when you're on the inside you don't have that you just have one door slammed after another after another after another and if I 00:26:00can go in there for a couple of hours a week and offer a little bit of hope through a course or by saying yes you can do it or by reading someone's poetry or by you know taking a message to somebody at sinclair I mean everybody in this on this planet has to have some element of hope I'm no psych teacher or a sociologist but uh I know that is that's part of the human condition and when you're hopeless uh you're not gonna be a good citizen when you do get out of there you just you're just not going to be you probably won't even be successful at making it.

Mary Evans: Right right I'm just thankful for what education has done for me and the returned citizens that I've surrounded myself around um and it seems like most of them have like they were released before me and a few of them have already went on to graduate couple are working on their masters and I just think you know um I wish there was a way that um like there was some funding or like scholarship or great opportunities for people who do successfully complete um 00:27:00you know furthered education courses inside um a lot of times um depending on the stipulations of their charge they might have had drugs while they were getting financial aid it messes with a lot of people's financial aid and stuff and I just wish that there was like an actual funding scholarship grant something for incarcerated individuals who really wanted to further education once they're released to be able to do that because I'm telling you that's what saved me was furthering my education I think without that I'd be lost I'd probably been back in prison I wouldn't have had nothing to you know like you said have hope for you know to learn and I think a lot of it too was to prove people wrong because you know a lot of people um will start something and not finish it and I was like I had went through so much to get here I'm not going to mess this up.

Heidi Arnold: And you know I think it's also a relationship if you can build a relationship on the inside that somehow connects you bridges the gap to the outside wow.

Mary Evans: Right

Heidi Arnold: You know it doesn't matter that you went to sinclair on the inside and they ended up in Antioch that's still an educational bridge and a relationship that you made so if somebody's in the uh chapel and they connect to the chaplain and they have some sort of relationship with a person who can bridge the gap for them and help them on the way out I mean that I don't know what that's called but we need more and more of that you know connection on the inside following somebody to the outside.

Mary Evans: Yeah it was by pure coincidence that the people that I ended up meeting um were actually in yellow springs like I never in a million years knew that dr Roma lived there. I mean when you're volunteer coming in you don't have that kind of relationship with that person that you're like oh yeah well I live here I live there you know what I mean it was more of a mentor mentee relationship never spoke about where she was from anything so it absolutely blew my mind when I was like I got I got in and even when I was applying to Antioch I 00:29:00never knew that you know she lived there uh mr platt from story chain I never knew that he was antioch alum I never knew that he was you know living in yellow springs and I just thought it was really crazy and ironic that I ended up in yellow springs with these people that I'd met while I was inside and then ultimately go to the college that came inside and did the inside out I just think that that's where I was supposed to be the universe aligned that for me like I said it made education first like that's that's what I strive to be better at I was always um you know the chubby kid or this kid you know like kind of like the nerd and I liked that and that's what I was good at so being good in school and being good at like you know challenging things was like what I wanted to do and like that brought me back to the person that I was before and I think a lot of times too that's where a lot of women are so eager because you know having conversations with women I've had it that's where they were their you 00:30:00know their best was I was really good in high school you know you or you'll see a lot of them get into sports and volleyball and stuff while they're going to sinclair and it's like you know that's kind of like the pattern that they had in school I played sports after school and I did good in school and so that was kind of like the the comforting things for us and kind of like brought us back full circle um I hope to see programs increase at Dayton correctional I hope to see you know um everything be able to go back to you know normal um hopefully you know sooner than later and I'd like to see a lot more people have scholarship opportunities like I had because without it I don't know where I would be.

Heidi Arnold: I think I've interacted with a lot of people on the inside who come out and within weeks months they're asking how do I get to school how do I sign up for classes I want a laptop how do I do this and I think it's because that's the place where they feel hopeful that's the place where they feel wanted 00:31:00that's the place where they feel recognized and sometimes that works and they can get into school right away and a lot of times there's a challenge ahead of them because they have a debt that has to be paid or they have no wi-fi or they have no transportation or you know a four-year institution won't accept them or whatever but I hear what you're saying that you know the things on the inside that make you realize you're still a person and you're still human are also the things that carry you on the outside where you feel like you fit.

Mary Evans: Yeah absolutely well thank you so much for all these nice answers and and just being a part of this because it's important for people to under I feel like it's really important for people to understand the importance of education for an incarcerated individual to be successful when they return and I hope that it changes the stereotypes of you know changes people's minds like you who once thought I don't want them to have nothing to I want to have everything you know what I mean because without access I mean what kind of person is going to return it's going to be the same person that got locked up right so if you 00:32:00don't know better you can't do better hopefully it'll continue on and hopefully they'll bring back more funding where people can you know leave. I think if you have time if you have a four or five year sentence you have time to get a bachelor's degree why not you know you know and or some kind of vocational technical training to where they can get some straight into employment you know what I mean and like that's another thing about sinclair too is like the job placement the job placement rates are really really good and a lot of the people who went under further education at sinclair um are employed and I think that's amazing too even with you know the um barrier of being a felon and all that stuff they were still able so I think that's amazing yeah.

Heidi Arnold: Part of the process right?

Mary Evans: I guess well thank you so much I appreciate you!

Heidi Arnold: I appreciate you Mary!