Lucas Bautista

[Mari K Smith]: Please say your name and your year

[Lucas Bautista]: My name is Lucas Bautista. I am a second year student.

[Mari K Smith]: Ok so the first question. How do you feel about the statement race is not real? And there is not like a right or wrong answer though it can be loaded.

[Lucas Bautista]: When I think about the statement Race is not real, I don't, it 00:01:00obviously depends on who it is coming from. I understand the idea that race is not a real thing and it's socially constructed. It's not really like, it's not like, there is no way to really see what is your race, you can't test for it or anything. It's real in the sense that People still use it as a way to discriminate against others, it's real in the way that it's still a concept that exists. I do understand in the sense that it's not real because race isn't a real thing and it's only people's perception of what race is. Obviously it's still very real. I think a lot of people try to take away from it by saying it's not real because I 00:02:00think that's not fair because it doesn't acknowledge that it's definitely something that affects our society today.

[Mari K Smith]: Do you think it depends on who it's coming from when they say it?

[Lucas Bautista]: I think it depends on their meaning behind what they're saying is. If it is meant to discredit the struggle that people face, in the eye of racism and race and try to say that it's not real by discrediting peoples experiences. I don't think that's fair. If it's someone arguing race isn't even real and they're using it to discredit discrimination and it's pointless then that makes a little more sense. Either way you can't take away from what is racism and race that's what is important.

[Mari K Smith]: Lets just expand a tiny bit more on that. Have you ever been in any argument about this where you felt like someone used that against you? In a way that it enhances privilege? Like how does that make you feel?

[Lucas Bautista]: I haven't had that many intense conversations with people about race. If I do have a conversation with someone it's usually with someone that agrees with me. So I can't really It's just never really been used against me so what was the question?

[Mari K Smith]: It was just the concept that race is not real. Do you have a visceral reaction?

[Lucas Bautista]: Yea I think if it was someone who was like "why are people 00:04:00complaining race isn't even real?" like if it was that sort of attitude I would probably be pretty upset because that pretty clearly comes from someone who doesn't have that experience. Or doesn't have that mindset of not acknowledging other people's experiences. Not very empathetic.

[Mari K Smith]: What are your feelings or thoughts of POC culture on antioch's campus?

[Lucas Bautista]: Wow that's like, I don't even know where to start. I guess I just, I'm glad that people of color have a group to go to but I don't think 00:05:00there is a lot of unity of people of color on campus whether it's people of color attending meetings. Or people of different backgrounds who don't get along. I don't think there is a lot of agreement. I don't think the school really respects or takes the needs into account of people of color on campus into account. That's all people of color, including faculty and including the 00:06:00staff. I feel like I come from a unique perspective of identifying as white and a person of color. It is hard identifying with people's experiences if you've never experienced them. I really understand that and I understand why people have a hard time sometimes. It's kind of like being more selfless and not thinking for yourself. It's acknowledging other people's experiences and when they're telling you about their experiences and accepting and acknowledging that and if you don't feel that way that's ok but you need to be understanding of those other people.

[Mari K Smith]: Do you think that POC culture on Antioch's campus is a positive thing?

[Lucas Bautista]: Wow I don't think you can just make those generalizations that 00:07:00it's a positive thing or it's a negative thing. I think it's positive to have a culture of POC on campus. I don't know if that's what you're asking.

[Mari K Smith]: Like our campus? Do you think POC culture is in general good for the culture of Antioch?

[Lucas Bautista]: I do but like I always think there are ways to improve it too. Yea. I think any sort of support of people of color on campus is important and has a positive influence for students you know because students have that place to go.

[Mari K Smith]: What about our culture and our poc?

[Lucas Bautista]: Right now it's a pretty big positive influence because it's helping things change for people of color on campus. I don't think everyone sees it that way which is kind of sad.

[Mari K Smith]: If you could put into your own words the purpose behind the day of disappearance and the day of action if you will. What were the results of that and why it was triggered.

[Lucas Bautista]: I guess the day of disappearance was interesting so you can get two results from it. Everyone notices "Whoa why are all of these people missing?" and then recognizes they're all people of color. Or no one notices people of color are gone which shows that people of color are kind of invisible 00:09:00on campus. Which both kind of prove our point? But I kind of feel like the latter happened? Which is really sad to me, it really does prove that point that people of color are not recognized on campus. Which I think part of it is that not all people of color participated fully. No one should feel like they have to participate in a particular identifying group. I think that would have really had the impact that they wanted that we wanted, that the group wanted, that I wanted.

[Mari K Smith]: It wasn't as impactful as you wanted it to be or it was impactful because of the lack of impact?

[Lucas Bautista]: I think the purpose was to have an impact on the campus as a whole. Being like "look we're not here." Whether it did or didn't is a different question. I think it was impactful in the way that people of color and faculty of color got together on campus and they talked about issues important to them.

[Mari K Smith]: A lot of the interviews I've done have talked about how that was a really great model for how you can have productive interruptive action that 00:11:00was a positive thing and left everyone feeling included and had a better understanding in the room. Would you agree with that statement?

[Lucas Bautista]: Yea I would agree with that.

[Mari K Smith]: Why would you say it was successful in that way?

[Lucas Bautista]: I think everyone kept an open mind. It was done in person, and we had much more participation. I think in person is a big thing. A lot of conversations happen over the internet or word of mouth or not even word of mouth and it's like "this person said this and that person said this and" and on a small campus things spread so quickly and you never actually get the true story. That happens in so many things. I don't think it's a POC problem. I think 00:12:00it's a small campus problem of communication. The fact that one of the most successful times we've all communicated as a school is in POC makes me really happy.

[Mari K Smith]: I personally felt very proud of just how gracious and tactful everyone was and how this is this really big thing that is happening and they can't find one trace of dirt of what we did. We weren't late, we were respectful, it was this very fine line of this tightrope that meli and everyone, we all walked very graciously. I was like "yes"

[Lucas Bautista]: You should have come to this thing on Tuesday. It was really 00:13:00great. Really important. Not in a bad way. There were some other things that happened towards the end. The frustrating thing was that the conversation got cut off. I think that is another complicated thing is the fact that we had like 8 hours to talk about things? That made a huge impact. It's much different when you're like ok we're going to have dialogue, we're going to talk, we're going to let everyone speak and we're going to acknowledge it all but we only have an hour to do it so hurry up. Or we only have two hours to do it and that's never enough time. Some people made that point at the meeting, the later meeting. It's not like ok we're going to have the dialogue, here is the time for the dialogue and it's over. It's an ongoing thing. It's a continuous thing that has to keep going.

[Mari K Smith]: Can you explain what happened at the meeting as well?

[Lucas Bautista]: I might have a bit of a different perception of what happened at the meeting. It had a little bit of a rough start. There was a bit of a disagreement on who should start. I was really supportive of Meli. I think she was amazing. She really spearheaded the whole thing and that was great. I think the faculty and the president's staff really got a better understanding of what we wanted and the board. They don't seem in opposition to what we want, and I don't think there is that much opposition. I understand where they're coming 00:15:00from which is really good and we understand that these decisions are coming from a place much higher up. It's not directly from them. I think what was disappointing was that in the end and this is just my interpretation. I don't want to like. I think Tom is really good and doing his best but I felt like at the end, but I don't think this was his intention. It was a brushing off of his responsibilities and he turned to Emilio and was like "hey can you continue this discussion." it was like. That was really upsetting and he kind of brought up the ten points we demanded. And he was like that was really easy to agree to because five or six of those points are already in there plan and that was 00:16:00really frustrating for me. I don't think he meant it in a bad way and it sounded bad to me because "Yea it was easy to agree to something we're already doing." and it's like that's not why we asked for this. We know what you're doing. There are people here who are already on the diversity committee. We're asking for those demands because those needs aren't being met. To tell us that they're already in the plan felt really insulting and kind of condescending.

[Mari K Smith]: That's fair. Yea you're allowed to feel that.

[Lucas Bautista]: I don't want to be overly critical of Tom because he just got here. He's still getting used to things and he's really trying. I think it's important to acknowledge everything he's facing, which is a lot. I don't blame him but I do think that there was a better way to deal with that situation.

[Mari K Smith]: Thanks for sharing that. Because I know you don't want to start stuff and this won't go anywhere you don't want it to. Do you think having a POC hall is a form of self segregation?

[Lucas Bautista]: No I do not think that. I don't think the word self segregation should be used. I see it a lot in the way people use reverse racism, I know someone else made this point and I was thinking about it too. Like you, Segregation was based on a form of oppression. People were trying, when you segregate someone you try to oppress them. It doesn't mean to separate, it means 00:18:00to segregate. You could say people are separating themselves. No one is saying that. People are saying self segregation. Just because you say self doesn't mean you are taking away that whole history of oppression that comes with the word segregation. You probably remember we did this impactful exercise where Keva asks everyone just to say the first thing that comes to mind and she said segregation and someone said dogs and that was the first thing that came to my mind too which was crazy because that was the first thing I thought of too.

[Mari K Smith]: Why dogs?

[Lucas Bautista]: Just thinking of the south and dogs going after African American people? Like I think that is the most emotional response. I imagine dogs going after people who were protesting people getting attacked by dogs just 00:19:00because they wanted freedom. That's always like a really upsetting image. I think even though. The term self segregation just shouldn't be used anymore because it feels really insulting. That's how I feel personally. That's just a system based on oppression. Just like racism is based on oppression you can't have reverse racism. I don't really believe in self segregation. When people are quote unquote self segregating is what they're really doing is they're empowering themselves. That's the whole thing. This isn't about, people of color aren't self oppressing that's not what it is going on here. This is people of 00:20:00color who want to feel safe and have their own community and to me I feel like that is more powerful than the degrading term self segregation.

[Mari K Smith]: I have two follow up questions. First thing do you believe that, the term self segregation was brought up because this was an issue of race. Those terms are not brought up when we, in terms of women halls, men's halls, gender neutral halls. Do you believe that in itself was an act of oppression or racism? Or maybe ignorance?

[Lucas Bautista]: Yea Ignorance I think? Maybe slight microaggression I think? I don't know what to call it. I don't have a name for it. But I think yea it did 00:21:00come up because of race. Which I don't think the people who brought that up saw it as problematic or that they were trying to use it in a problematic way. I'm just saying, I'm only saying what I just said because I've had a lot of time to think about it. Like it's easy to be all righteous and you shouldn't use this term and blah blah blah. No I actually probably would have used that term to describe it but after having this time to think about it now I don't think that term is appropriate anymore. I think there needs to be this time for people to work through this and have a conversation. Really talking about what that means. Having that discussion just about the word self segregation is important.

[Mari K Smith]: Would you say the dialogue during the day of disappearance helped make that clear for you?

[Lucas Bautista]: Yea it helped make a lot of things clear for me. I didn't really comprehend the POC hall when it came up. I didn't really have strong 00:22:00feelings either way. I wasn't like Yea that's horrible or like yeah like that's really needed. I was like OK. I did the day of disappearance even though I don't personally feel like I need a POC hall. Our POC family here at Antioch is asking for it and if someone is asking for it I don't see any reason why I shouldn't support it and hearing all of those people talk I became more and more in support of it. I'm not going to lie, I didn't act on those doubts. I just fought 00:23:00them and I heard people out. People just need to hear each other out. I think that was really helpful. I also think it was helpful that the criticism of a POC hall was coming from people of color. That was so much better than having white people be like "this is why you shouldn't do this." It's harder to listen to someone who doesn't share the same experience as you. Even someone who comes from a very privileged background and then telling you that what you're feeling isn't right. It can feel like someone is telling you that what you're feeling is invalid.

[Mari K Smith]: That segues very nicely into my next question. Do you feel a POC hall is necessary in a small liberal arts campus like Antioch and why if you do? When do you have to go I'm sorry?

[Lucas Bautista]: I'm fine hold on. [Pause]

[Mari K Smith]: Take your time. Do you feel a POC hall is necessary on a small liberal arts campus like Antioch and if you do why?

[Lucas Bautista]: I think it's definitely necessary on a small liberal arts campus in the middle of Ohio that general speaking is a pretty homogenous population, at least what I've seen recently. I think it's important. I think yea necessary is definitely a good word to use. You need people to feel at home and Meli brought up one of the best points, if they're going to ignore every single point and look at it from a very logical perspective, which I don't really recommend. Just the mere idea of this school's existence needing this hall for retention of people of color, is so important. If they're going to take 00:26:00nothing away from it, If you're not going to listen to all of the concerns that people of color have expressed at least, understand that on that level.

[Mari K Smith]: One last question. Yellow springs was once a place of great diversity as well as a safe haven for people of color greatly due to Antioch college. Do you think that this could be a realistic goal to regain once again?

[Lucas Bautista]: Yea I see people. I totally could see that but its not just going to happen with magic and fairy dust. It's going to happen with real effort 00:27:00on everyone's part. I don't think with anyone on this. This was really frustrating especially in the meeting. If you want this you should work hard for this. Haven't people of color been working hard enough on everything else? Why is this just, why are they working so hard for this already you know?

[Mari K Smith]: Is there any last thought you want to say that you want to touch on more?

[Lucas Bautista]: I actually just had a thought I was developing it.

[Mari K Smith]: Don't feel pressured to immediately talk

[Lucas Bautista]: Just like, thinking about the women's hall and like how that 00:28:00was never a question. No one was like oh look the women were trying to self segregate. Women are trying to go back into the olden days. You didn't hear that sort of rhetoric everyone was like oh yea that makes sense women need a safe place away from ya know men. That made sense because there is a history of 00:29:00oppression from men to women. Why is that not the same with the POC hall. I think that just kind of goes to show that there is still this very internalized racism. I don't think it's very intentional but it is internalized. Yea. I think yea. It's very internalized. Once you say the word racism you have. No one wants to be called racists. No one even racists. Some racists don't even want to be called racists because it has such a strong connotation. Once you call someone 00:30:00racist they will do anything to not be called that and there are so many different types of racism. Saying racism ok? That's not ok. But there are so many different types of racism and where racisms can come from. It needs to be acknowledged that people, you don't, there needs to be a certain amount of humility from people who don't have that experience. That is just not seen. I understand that ok my views are definitely, I think people here see themselves as an unbiased actor but that's just not how it is and they need to really accept that they have all of these other influences that they can't control. You can't control these things and they've always been a part of who you are and I think that is what needs to be realized.

[Mari K Smith]: Yea cause like I mean it almost seems ridiculous because the reason why women got a women's hall is the same reason we want a POC hall and it's like oh of course that makes sense but like.

[Lucas Bautista]: Yea I agree. I think there are some differences but I don't think any of the differences are enough to say that they're a completely different experience. I don't think they're not enough to say they don't deserve the same space for the same reasons.