Angel Nalubega

[Mari K Smith]: What is your name and your year at antioch?

[Angel Nalubega]: I'm Angel Nalubega and I'm in the class of 2018.

[Mari K Smith]: So just diving right into it how do you feel about the statement race is not real?

[Angel Nalubega]: I think race is. On a level it is a social construct that has been created, that was created historically to oppress groups that have not been the historical definition of what white was. I still don't exactly understand what Whiteness is as an institution but the creation of it has led to identities that are very 00:01:00real. I think on some level the construct isn't. The construct itself I think. Isn't real. There aren't biological differences between me and another person of color or another white person. There aren't that many biological differences so on some level we are all human biologically but at the same time because of the construction of race I think it is real on a certain level and at the same time its not. It's complex that way. It has a duality to it. On some level it isn't real and in certain situations with certain people it is as real as anything 00:02:00you can touch or feel so I think it depends. I don't know if that was a good answer.

[Mari K Smith]: No it's ok. How would you. I feel as though the question is coming up in my mind is how would you perceive it, or, that's not what I want to say. How would. If someone were a white person and they say race is not real I feel like it's different if a person of color and they say race is not real. How do you feel about that?

[Angel Nalubega]: When people often, when white folks try to. When they say race isn't real it's either in this very color blind kumbaya notion "oh we all are human so we should all be able to get along and forget about that constructions of race and we should forget about how race has been 00:03:00used." and it's often, like that connotation is more hurtful and destructive to the conversation because it ignores that diversity of the experience and the range of the experiences that people have as non-white people verses when white people are having this discussion. We're having this discussion walking into it knowing that we are all, at least in the United States, this is a very United States centric definition of race that differs in other places, but we're walking into it knowing that it's a different ball park and it's a different meaning. Were not going into it with an assumption "oh were all human kumbaya" 00:04:00its like were all under this system too like we get it kind of?

[Mari K Smith]: My initial thought when I heard that statement was like. It was like a very convenient notion of being able to pretend like no tension has ever existed between races ya know and that any of that is not relevant and illegitimate. But yeah I know what you're saying. How do you feel, can you share some of your feelings and thoughts about POC culture on Antioch's campus?

[Angel Nalubega]: I think it's kind of interesting trying to understand what it is. What is the presence of students of color on campus. It's kind of all over 00:05:00the place. We all are able to insert ourselves into the community in a very effortless ways. So there is this level of like visibility that occurs. We're involved in everything that everybody else is. There is a level of kind of what would the campus be like if we were here. What would that mean. We all have like different niches that we fall into so it's easy for us to just like fit in in a certain space that we feel comfortable in but there is no communication across those spaces. I feel amongst different groups especially I don't know when I found that the people of color group existed when I first got here I was excited. I Had never really been in a group like that. I was always the outlier 00:06:00in any group that I was in ever in highschool when that didn't fit in. "Oh this is an opportunity for me to get to know other students of color as well" and feeling like "Oh it's like a black group" as if that was bad? There wasn't a community of color as it was a very disjointed thing. It's hard for me to connect with and talk to its because of just personal things. On a certain level 00:07:00they don't engage with race on the same way I want to engage with race and so the culture is like what culture do we have and what presence do we have. We're kind of disjointed in very rare moments there is some level of unity and solidarity. During our walk out on fall quarter I saw people that don't really come to things show up and take leadership or during the day of disappearance, people being present in the room that are never present in the room. I also 00:08:00think there is a layer of culture. Something that adds to this connection, the disconnect is kind of the difference between the men of color and the women of color on campus. In my experience the black women on campus and the men of color don't jive as well as they could. I'm only speaking from my experience, I don't know about other women. From my experience and the black women on campus have this conversation on campus all of the time. The men of color don't really talk to us or hang out and it's really hard to get them to hang out and show up if 00:09:00it's not a party. Whereas I think there are so few men of color it's easy for them to have their group or their place where they fit in and not want to disturb that and be different. For us we have that over-hyper visibility. We're always seen as the trouble makers or the people that are always complaining about stuff and the people that are angry and this this this and the other. And they're just there and I also think a lot of it is that they're being dudes and not having to deal with a lot of the shit that they can get away with shit that we would never be able to get away with because they're guys. I think there is a 00:10:00layer of I don't know like sexuality that also plays into it because like they're guys.

[Mari K Smith]: You don't mind me going onto the next question because that's what it pertains to. What kind of social constructs do you think contribute to racism on campus because Alyssa talked about this a lot too she said sexism is a big part.

[Angel Nalubega]: I think a lot of guys and some girls don't want to mess up what they have. So that construct of what is sexuality how does that play out on 00:11:00this campus this is a very sexual campus and so if you're not in that then you're gonna bleed. Or if you choose to have sex outside of this campus then you're not in the know but at the same time everyone knows who is having sex with each other anyway which is interesting. I think sexuality definitely plays a roll and for me, I choose not to have sex out of my own religious and personal code of how I operate as a person. It kind of is awkward at least with men, there are very few men on this campus in general that interact with girls they 00:12:00don't want to sleep with in a completely platonic way. I think it's more so for the men of color on campus, specifically very few black men. But also men of color on campus in general. Sexuality plays a role in that because you don't want to mess up what you have. I think gender and what is acceptable also plays out a lot on campus. Like what is an acceptable expression of your gender. Like how for women of color on campus when we get angry and we show up and are loud and present and we demand to be heard there is immediate backlash and tone 00:13:00policing and "Oh you shouldn't be. You're angry and you're making things up. We understand you're upset and you're going through this thing but, ya know." I don't know, there is a level of vitriol that I think women of color on campus experience that I think because of both that duality of being a woman and being an other. In the sense of race. Like those two things are intertwined in such a way that you can't separate the two. My first year I had a lot of incidents with men. Not all were white. Some were. One wasn't but the rest were. When I would 00:14:00talk about it to people or go to res life or go to other bodies on campus. Or just talk about it. They were like "maybe you're overreacting, or maybe they didn't mean to be this way, or maybe this wasn't a microaggression or maybe you were just feeling some type of way." Verses men, saying like "oh this is bad and this happened to me." Also from my experience I haven't really heard men complain about racial incidents or anything on campus and I think a layer of that has to deal with masculinity and feeling strong and feeling you can withstand anything. A layer of that might be feeling like this is normal and that they've kind of like normalized it. This is reality this is life this is 00:15:00college whatever. Where as women of color are like no this is bullshit and we're not standing for this. There is this thing I'm learning more about called desirability politics about whether or not you're found desirable or found attractive plays a role in who you are or how you operate in spaces and when you're not thin conventionally attractive which usually mean European features or it can also mean you're fetishized and you're features are seen as exotic if 00:16:00you're not that carbon copy of what that is. You aren't wanted and you aren't seen as valid or whatever and I see that play out sometimes in terms of like dating or friendships or whatever. People date the same types of people on campus. You don't really see people that are bigger or physically disabled with people who aren't like, I don't know. That's something I 've noticed a lot. Even though people think "Oh Antioch is so special and radical" or whatever. There is 00:17:00still this aspect of like people date the same people people fuck the same people that they would. There isn't anything radical about only dating white girls or only dating people who are a specific body type or who don't have a big nose or don't have big lips or who aren't loud or who aren't I' don't know. That's something I notice a lot. I think it's race, gender, sexuality.

[Mari K Smith]: WE have four more questions left so I'm sure we'll hit them. So if you could explain the POC day of disappearance and what preloaded that and what happened that day and some reflection on that if you would.

[Angel Nalubega]: The POC disappearance action to me was kind of the culmination of months of wondering, we needed to take time for ourselves and detach from the community for a bit. Detach from the community and see what mark that leaves. See what that says to the larger community. We can, like if we weren't here what Antioch would look like, would you notice our accents, would you notice we've been feeling this way for so long. At least in my view there are sometimes where 00:19:00it's like wow everyone sees me and everyone knows me and everyone like can pinpoint exactly what I'm doing. I feel like if I stopped going to community meeting, or I stopped going to class, What would that do to the space? And how would that change? So I think part of it was dealing, doing that, showing our visibility and showing our presence on campus by not being there. Another part of that I think was taking time to ourselves to strategize and ask ourselves what has happened and how are we going to deal with that, what are the things we're going to do to improve the goals that we've set for ourselves and improve the lives of POC on campus right now and for incoming students. Taking that time 00:20:00to strategize and plan that out was a purpose of the action. I think it was impactful for me. As a community organizer I really value plans and getting people to come together and getting people in a space and hearing what they have to say and then doing the work afterwards. So i really thought that was really special to me and especially getting the faculty into the room and seeing what work that they're doing and the things that they notice and for all of us to be in that space was so powerful and so uplifting when it was really stressful and hard when it felt like we weren't being heard. Then there is this larger community that we don't really reach out to very often that has some of the same concerns as we do and I think that was why it was impactful for me.

[Mari K Smith]: Do you uhm, Sorry I was thinking about my question but then I was getting into what you were saying. Uhm. Do you feel like the conversations we were having were constructive? Or productive in anyway?

[Angel Nalubega]: I think the conversations we had were constructive. I'm still kind of wondering though. There are Ideas we had like really great ideas that we had. But I'm wondering how we can make those into actual plans and start working on them. There is an issue at Antioch where we come up with great ideas and then never have the time to do them. We all need to commit to do them. I think the conversations were constructive but we need to check up and ask people like "hey 00:22:00you came up with this do you still want to work on it type of thing."

[Mari K Smith]: Yeah I agree for me it was really powerful to see how the faculty. Like everyone. It wasn't just talking in circles how many of those things do. Where everyone inserts their opinion and detaches. It was like one person says something, next person responds to it, and then that person changes their idea slightly and then they go on. It was like this building of something that was really meaningful. That was great. Uhm. Oh yeah so this kind of goes back. First of all what do you think of the word segregation to begin with?

[Angel Nalubega]: I think segregation is a term that, I'm a history major so I see it as a historical system of separation designed to keep order and to keep 00:23:00people in a set place and to uhm oppress and to retain. Like "we don't want you here so we're going to keep you here and you'll be here and we're going to have better versions of everything you'll have separate but equal versions of everything as long as you don't come over here." That's what I think of when I think of segregation.

[Mari K Smith]: Uhm, do you think that having a POC hall is a form of self segregation?

[Angel Nalubega]: Not at all. I think having a POC hall is having the option and the choice to live in a POC hall is the chance to cultivate a community and really cultivate a community that has been dealing with a lot of trauma and a 00:24:00lot of pain. I think having that option gives students of color the choice to live in a community where they can feel safe, feel like they can thrive, and feel like they can do more. Within the confines of Antioch. Having like, you can still go outside and talk and all of these other conversations with other white folks but just having that space and having the choice to have that space as a system of keeping order rather than a system of keeping students of color who need that experience of the students at Antioch.

[Mari K Smith]: My feeling is that the primary opposition to it is because of the word segregation and because of the words that are associated with it. On Top of that, the primary opposition to it believes it will de-integrate our student body and the culture will not be as rich. Do you have a response to that or what do you think about that idea?

[Angel Nalubega]: I think the campus is already at some level. It also depends on peoples like niches and where people fit and I feel like very often we have diversity but we don't have inclusion. Like people actually feel comfortable being here and like they can thrive here and feel comfortable. Already we're kind of detached from one another. It will just give us that chance to recharge 00:26:00I guess. I think we're already headed in that direction. It's just kind of a de facto de-integration or whatever.

[Mari K Smith]: Ah yeah uhm. What do you think is the importance of culture in someone who is a person of color?

[Angel Nalubega]: I think having culture is for me something of a foundation. It's something that grounds me. Uhm, like for me having a culture and having my unique culture that is similar to other students on campus that is also quite 00:27:00different I speak a language that no one else can speak. And it's not special because of that it's special because it's mine. I have that experience. And I like have that experience and I have that level of foundation and this is my history this is where i come from and even I don't know much about it this is the music I have this iis the art speak this is my family. My parts weave into my identity and who I am and trying to cultivate that as much as I can is really hard but I think it's so valuable for students to explore their culture and to weave their own individual cultures into the narrative of Antioch because we all 00:28:00are apart of we all develop our own culture by being here and being students at this college. To have like, so I think having culture for a student of color is imperative for them to live and be a full person, not just a person but have that foundation of who they are.

[Mari K Smith]: Uhm, Sorry let me just take that in for a second. Ok, do you believe that having a POC hall is necessary on a small liberal arts campus like Antioch in general?

[Angel Nalubega]: I think so. I think this campus is very small and in some ways there is a duality of being over stimulated with people and being detached I think uhm having that hall that safe space that community that creates a level of intimacy and community that the larger community doesn't serve because this is a small community but we don't know people. We know of people, we talk about people, we don't fully recognize honor and respect people. I think because of 00:30:00that failing most of us have failed to understand, I think it's like a systematic thing as well as like a personal thing. I think It's necessary to have that space. If we didn't have that space then that's just serving to push people out.

[Mari K Smith]: Do you believe that the overstimulation comes in part by the need for people of color to fill this quota of this kind of ya know. They're creating Antioch, Antioch has people of color and people of color are constantly 00:31:00having to educate people. Do you feel that?

[Angel Nalubega]: Yeah I think Gabrielle said something that really stuck with me on the day of disappearance. As students of color we're doing double duty. We're doing our own stuff and taking care of ourselves hopefully but also dealing with the racial shit that everyone else doesn't white people and some students of color who don't or aren't as aware of things. We deal with that. We take that labor on. For us who are continually doing that double duty it is stressful it is exhausting and draining. It makes people want to leave and it 00:32:00makes people leave. There is a certain level of stimulation that makes people good. There is a certain level of race class identity that is healthy and necessary in order to have a functioning society. However because this place is too small we're here for eleven weeks and we see everybody every day with incessant questions it's really stressful to have to deal with that all of the time. That overstimulation I think uhm and doing that over stimulation coupled with doing double duty and taking on everything at once both of those things 00:33:00combined are really dangerous for anyone especially students of color.

[Mari K Smith]: How do you feel when you're around other people of color in POC group?

[Angel Nalubega]: I think in POC group it's a really comfortable space. I, it's really interesting because I was thinking about today and I was talking to a friend it's really hard to connect with POC sometime because we have varying experiences so like for me there are like some groups of people of color who I had never really interacted with before until I came here and so I'm learning all of the time and it's a really comfortable space to learn and be really comfortable messing up because you know each other and it's not a result of bad 00:34:00intent its a result of experiences and different experiences and also it's a really kind community to be a part of which is interesting because I don't feel that way about the larger POC community really. But in that group the people that show up to that group are always full of a lot of kindness and a lot of joy and when we have POC dinners and we have time to enjoy our company it means a lot.

[Mari K Smith]: Do you feel appreciated in the POC group?

[Angel Nalubega]: Yeah I think POC group has done a lot for me in having that space to vent and laugh and be happy when Antioch is really stressful. I think in the POC group more so than in the rest of the community I feel appreciated. I think.

[Mari K Smith]: Final question. Yellow springs was once a place of great diversity as well as a safe haven for people of color. Do you feel that this is a goal that can be reattained?

[Angel Nalubega]: I think there is a layer of systematic issues that is making that really difficult. Yellow springs is becoming more and more gentrified. A lot of the people of color that used to live here are moving out to xenia and Springfield because they can't afford to live here and uhm. Putting in perspective even in Columbus you can get a home for like 97 thousand dollars and here their homes are selling for like 500 thousand dollars like down the block. 00:36:00So I think for some reason yellow springs is this place that people want to go to which means it's more expensive for people to want to come and live here. For the vast majority of people of color there is already a wealth gap for white people even middle class white people. Like It would be very difficult to bring that community here but I think if Antioch grows and Antioch can improve the ratio of students of color I think that could also bring more people into yellow springs because a lot of people right after they graduate they live here for a 00:37:00year or two and some people stay or there are some townies who have been here there whole lives and they never left. I think if there was a combination of the right time and the right availability of somewhat affordable housing and more students of color I think that could help.

[Mari K Smith]: Is there any last statements or comments you want to touch on? Because that's all of the questions I have for you.

[Angel Nalubega]: I don't think so.

[Mari K Smith]: Thank you so much that was really great!