Lisandro Grané Interview

Lisandro Interview Transcription Duration: 0:57:46

Michelle: OK. So it's recording. So - oh it's a little too loud - OK, so first I'm going to talk a little bit about my project so that you know what's going to happen. So you know the topic of my research is urban green spaces and I'm especially interested in the roles of citizens and the city in the project to increase green spaces in Buenos Aires. And so my objective is to gather stories about people who do this work and with these interviews, I'm going to put them on this website for the scholarship that I received. It's called Oral History in the Liberal Arts and I'm also going to use the interviews for my studies at Antioch College.

Michelle: OK. And so... thank you so much for talking with me today. Lisandro: Oh it's my pleasure. Michelle: My name is Michelle Fujii. We are in the car driving back from... What was the place we were just at? Lisandro: Parque Natural Lago Lugano. Michelle: Yes. Today is September 1st and I am here with Lisandro. Can you just say your name and today's date? Lisandro: My name is Lisandro Grané. And I am from Argentina, the City of Buenos Aires, and I'm 43 years old. I have two kids; Vito 6 years old and Selva 4 years old. Michelle: And today's date. Lisandro: And today's date is September the 1st.

Michelle: Perfecto. OK. So, first, maybe a little bit more about yourself? Maybe about what you do for Un Arbol Para Mi Vereda?

Lisandro: Well, I work as the, how do you say, executive director, in the non-profit organization Un Arbol Para Mi Vereda, which means A Tree for My Sidewalk. I started with this project about five and a half years ago right after the moment that my first son was born. I felt the need of more trees for the city in order to give my my son a healthier environment for him to grow up. And it was like something that I felt as a need, and it wasn't me playing Jesus or anything. I needed that connection with nature and I noticed that we have very few green spaces in Buenos Aires, even though it's a big city.

Michelle: OK, so you were telling me a little bit about how you started working with Un Arbol [Para Mi Vereda] and about your son.

Lisandro: Yes. When I started, when my son was born... Well, actually, I started with the residuos, separación de residuos. I started producing my own compost, and then I did my own food garden in my house, and finally I turned to trees; to produce more threes, plant more trees in my neighborhood.

Michelle: Why trees and not other plants?

Lisandro: Well, good question. I think that the trees are very helpful in urban spaces because they provide shadow, they help to equilibrate, equilibrar la temperatura, la humedad, el aire, el suelo, si hay exceso de agua o sequía. They provide a lot of environmental services, a lot, more than any other plants. And some of them, they provide us with fruit that we can eat. So, and then I started to understand that it's not only good to plant trees, it's better to plant the native trees, the local trees, the trees that are the species that were here before the white man came. So, yes, trees. Trees for the future. That was kind of the motivation. I want to give my son the the best world possible and a way to make it, this world better, is planting trees. And the thing is that the trees are expensive, so I started to produce them myself. And the beginning, you know, I had a lot of failure. But then I took a course, studies on tree producing, at the Universidad de Buenos Aires. And well, I learned how to make trees, to produce them. And then once we had enough we started planting in our neighborhood, but always on request. There has to be always a person or a human being, a neighbor, who takes the tree as a son and cares for it and protects it, water it. You know, the first year for the tree is key for it's surveillance and it needs a human being to take care of him. So that's why the project is called Un Arbol Para Mi Vereda, A Tree for My Sidewalk. It's part of this connection between the person, the street, and the tree. It's a new sense of community. This is humans helping nature and nature helping humans. It's that cycle. The motivation is to rebuild that cycle. That sacred connection that we have lost but not too many years ago. It is not so far away. That connection is almost there. We can easily reconnect with that. And planting trees is, it works as a tool for that reconnection. But that is kind of the motivation. Sorry what was the question? (Laughter.)

Michelle: So you took the course, and you learned how to plant trees better, and then--

Lisandro: How to produce them.

Michelle: Yes, and to produce them better. And then you started planting trees on sidewalks. So is that when Un Arbol [Para Mi Vereda] started?

Lisandro: Yes. Actually we started with a very romantic, hippy, approach. I always say that the project started when we had our Facebook fan page. But it was very informal. That was year 2012, when we started with our fan page. Then we had a couple of years where we were like knowing our job better. We started to receive, you know, requests from companies or even government, to work with them or for them. For, you know, environmental events, or they asked us for workshop, or talk at certain, you know, the day of the water, water day, or the environmental day or something. So we started to have this sort of enterprise approach to things, but we were not in the mood of making money. We were just wanting to plant more trees. But you know one thing led to the other and suddenly we were receiving a lot of budget request for a tree planting event. Ao we needed to develop, yes, evolve into more organized way of producing, planting, budgeting, you know, in communicating our job. And it was fun. It is even fun today that we are like grown ups. But yes, we always say that it is sustainable only if it is fun. This is the translation, in Spanish we say, "Si es divertido, es sustentable." "If it's fun, it's sustainable." So we try to keep it fun, and you know, romantic. But maybe it's not so hippy nowadays. It has the hip, but not the hippy part. You know?

Michelle: Yeah.

Lisandro: We try to serve with the circumstance, but we are not a company with protocols. We are getting more professional in a lot of ways. Now we work for governments on a regular basis. We have big annual projects with governments, with big companies, like banks. You know, we're entering that zone, but still having fun. That's the only way to change the world.

Michelle: What's a big project you're working with the government on, now?

Lisandro: Well, the biggest one is the greenhouse at the Center of Information and Formation in Environmental Affairs, the CIFA [Centro de Informacion y Formacion Ambiental]. There we have our production unit. We produce trees, native trees, for public spaces that the city will plant with their own events and volunteers, and the whole circus. We are the producers of the trees. And we also give workshops. And we have scholarships for people that live in the slums but come to this greenhouse to learn, how do you say, the oficio. No? Learn the job of tree growing and tree planting with this sustainable approach that we have. We always say that we are sons of the crisis, because we learned to produce trees and create green spaces without any money, with only our enthusiasm. But now that we have some money, well, you better fasten your seatbelts! (Laughter.) No, we try to teach this art of tree growing without spending a lot of money in the process. You can do it for almost 0 dollars. So, I mean, you can go yourself and pick the seeds. You can recycle plastic bottles, and make them into containers for the the sowing. And then you can produce your own compost for the soil, you know, it's so free. Nature is free. It's there. The thing is when you go into a bigger scale, and this project with the government, we have to produce 8,000 trees every year at least this first year. Well if you have that goal, you better have some budget. But we try to keep it as low cost as possible.

Michelle: Where are these trees going to be planted?

Lisandro: Well, the park we just visited, the Parque Natural Lago Lugano, is one of the places that the city is backing up and trying to make it greener, because it was a dump site. So there is one of the places. The other places are... in Buenos Aires we have these comunas, which are like a group of neighborhoods, grouped and controlled, let's say, by-- not the central government of the city but... the people. Let's put that in-- How do you say?

Michelle: Air quotes?

Lisandro: Air quotes. OK. So these comunas, we receive native trees to plant in their parks, you know, public spaces. So it's gonna be decentralized. But you know the city needs to plant like 20,000 trees a year and we are producing only 8000. There are also other greenhouses. The city has a couple green houses that produce more plants but they are exotic plants, not native. And we still do not have, well the government does not have yet the motivation to plant only native species. They plant whatever they can. And we are kind of the promoters, and the CIFA, the Agencia de Protección Ambiental, APrA, are the young promoters of this new way of thinking of the urban landscape with native species, which attracts the birds, the butterflies, all the animals that were here evolving with those species from the old ages of America.

Michelle: Why does the city have to plant 20,000 trees every year?

Lisandro: Well, OK. This is mine. Why? Well actually the city of Buenos Aires has half a million trees planted already, alive. Half a million that are in parks, in the street, you know, the trees that you see. And then in the City of Buenos Aires we have a population, only in the city, of four million people living here. So that gives you a rate - help me with the math here - but if you have a half a million trees and let's say 5 million people living here, you have like one tree for 10 people. No? The United Nations' health area, that's the OMS, Organización Mundial de la Salud-- health world--?

Michelle: Si, World Health Organization.

Lisandro: Those guys. They say that a big city like Buenos Aires needs to have 10 to 15 m² of green spaces per inhabitant, per person living there. Buenos Aires has only 5.6 m² meters of green spaces by person. OK? So we are way low. We have the half of the bottom of what is recommended. Other cities, like in Brazil you have Curitiba, they have more than 30 m² of green spaces per person. They have the double. So those are good places for humans to live. So Buenos Aires has a lack of green spaces. And the government also said that they will change that situation. They talk about 70,000 trees in the next five years. I wish they could accomplish that. I'm really working for that goal, but I don't think they could make it because trees take long to grow and there are not enough trees around Buenos Aires to provide 70,000 trees in five years. It's not gonna happen. Let's say that they could plant like 20,000 trees in the next three years. Well, we're gonna help that to happen, you know. I mean it's again the politics and what the government says and what the people need to have, you know. That's the political conversation. We choose to be a hands on organization. We cannot wait for the government to do what's needed to be done. We choose to do it ourselves. And so at the beginning of this nonprofit organization we were kind of against the law. Actually in those early years it was prohibited, it was not legal, for the citizens to plant their own trees on their own sidewalk. It was against the law. And we helped that to happen. So year 2013, we had a meeting with the Board of the Tree Planting of the government, it's called the Dirección de Arbolado Urbano. And when that meeting started the second on the dialogue line I heard was, "Do you know that what you're doing is against the law?" And I said "Hey, I know the law. And there's an article. Article No. 24 says that the organizations that help to provide a healthier environment and help nature or blah blah blah, they can plant only if they do that in coordination with the authorities of tree planting. So I guess you are the authority. So let's work together! We are doing this for free!" So that was our first encounter with the law. In the beginning we were like, you know, how they say, not against the law but in the border. And now we are hired by the government. We are official. Is that an accomplishment? Or is that a, you know, I don't know. But that is what is happening now, five years later. Now we are working for the city.

Michelle: Going back to the city planting trees, do you think there is space to plant that many trees in Buenos Aires?

Lisandro: Good question. That's the whole problem. The city is growing so fast that the few empty spaces that could be turned into green spaces are turned into shopping centers or buildings or, you know, whatever, but they are not turning into green spaces. Only in the south part of the city, where we were today, there are still some wastelands that, you know, nobody wants to live there, nobody wants to build a shopping center there, because it's close to the slums, it's close to the industries, the river, not the river plate, the Riachuelo river, the smaller river. It's polluted so the air smells bad. It's not a good place to live. But the city is taking that into the plan of greening that area and to make it more livable. So in a couple of years the shopping centers and the buildings will come. No? But yeah, sorry. This present moment they are investing a lot of money into getting that area more livable. So that's where we are working actually. The few places that you can plant trees are in the south part of the city.

Michelle: You mentioned that you guys teach people in the nearby neighborhoods how to plant trees. Why do you think it's important for those people in those neighborhoods to learn that skill?

Lisandro: Good. Well, since these neighborhoods are the ones who have the fewer green spaces per inhabitant. Actually the city has 5.6 but those neighborhoods, the slums, they have a 1.5 m² of green spaces per inhabitant. So those neighborhoods are the most vulnerable in terms of green spaces. They have none, places to go, you know, to play football or drink some mate under a tree. There are none. So those are the places that need more trees. But at the same time, it's a way to teach a job to people that live in those neighborhoods to get into society again. Most of them are unemployed or never have a job so it's good to start with something that they can do, you know, with your own hands, connect with the earth, with the cycles, collect the seeds, water, and start building a way of living, you know. They can learn with us how to produce trees and then get a job in a regular commercial greenhouse, like there are many in the city. It's a way to give these people a tool to jump back into society again. That's the social aspect of this. The other one is the environmental. I mean those are the places that need more trees or more care for the few spaces, green spaces, that are there. So it's both social and environmental project. And the third part of the project is the economical. This is why we call this a triple impact project. Is that known like that, in the States?

Michelle: Maybe--

Lisandro: Triple impact. So it is a social, environmental, and economical, because these people who learn this job can build, like an entrepreneurial, like a start up, like a business, with this tool that we teach them. They can, you know, three or four or five people get together and build up a commercial project. They can live out of producing and selling trees, or planting or landscaping, designing, or... I mean, there are lots of possibilities to develop a job out of caring for the planet. This is the future for me. For me, I mean I'm 43. I'm done, you know? (Laughter.) But the future-- Which is the planet that we are leaving for our sons? Well, this planet is environmentally ruined. So the future, if there's a future, is to re-establish life on it. And the way to do it is to plant trees, the native, especially. So they can call back the birds, and the birds will bring the seeds and other trees. And you know, if we work towards that goal, well there's a future in that. And there's also a business opportunity. The old way of thinking, you know, the structivism? The take advantage of the resources until they are washed out, you know the wild capitalism? That is the old way. And that is running into its own annihilation. This, at least myself, my personal, my spiritual business with this business, is give other people, my family, the possibility to replant life, re-establish the equilibrium, the ecosystems, re-establish the equilibrium between oneself and the planet. I mean, nature has it all figured out. But we the humans, we lost that connection. That was the beginning of our end. And I see a way of re-establishing this connection with the trees, I mean producing trees. It's a job, and it's the job that the planet needs. So there's a future there. I mean, I believe that. And thanks God now the government is paying attention to us. You know? I mean we could keep going without the government, that even gives you power, you know, to be against the law and doing illegal things. That's thrilling you know? But how long can you walk without having the possibility to feed your family? It's good that now they are paying us to do this. And we are having fun in the way so it's a win-win situation.

Michelle: What do you think of the government's role in these kinds of environmental problems?

Lisandro: Good question. I think that the government - at least the Argentinian one, the City of Buenos Aires government, let's be very specific - they just want to take a picture with the candidate, the person in the government in the picture of something good, something green, something well done. "Ohh they planted the tree. I'm gonna vote them (clapping) on the next election!" I think that is their motivation. Sorry guys, maybe there are few of you that are good people but the general mood from governments into environment is, "Let's do this because people care, not because we care. Put this in the agenda because the people think that is important. So I'm gonna do that to win their love and affection." So I think it is very calculated, not very honest. Usually not very well managed, I mean, you see the plantation we were today. It was a mess. I mean, too little time, a lot of kids trying to plant a few trees, and they were not building a connection with nature. They were there for the picture, just the picture of themselves doing that! No? It was sad. But at the end of the day, I don't care. We planted some trees! We had some fun. And OK, you know, at the end of the day we planted trees. I mean, it's a nice conversation: which is the role of the government in all this mess? They just try to look good in the picture. That's what I think. But I'm glad they do because they hired me. They think I look good. I make them look better. I think that's the way they think. You know, I'm very charming, you know, (laughter). I look expensive (laughter). OK.

Michelle: So Lisandro: You have some water? Michelle: Yeah I think I have a little bit. How close are we? Lisandro: Like 20 minutes. Michelle: Oh OK. We should try to wrap up then. Lisandro: No, but we have time, eh? Michelle: Yeah? Lisandro: Yeah. We can stop and talk.

Michelle: OK! So I guess... So there's this problem where the government is putting some money into this kind of thing, but you don't think they really care. Do you think, I don't know, is that OK? Like is that enough? Do you think in order for more change to happen, the government needs to care more or... What do you think about that problem?

Lisandro: Well, it's better to have that calculated effort. I mean, what they are doing now is better than nothing. What will happen in the future, well, I think these environmental problems will be bigger and bigger and-- as long as they keep doing nonsense, nonsense events, taking pictures of themselves pretending to be doing something, the problem will persist. So it's gonna hit them back. You know? So, I mean, not only they, the government, they are not just the bad guys. They are a part of the people. I mean we, I can say in the first person. We the humans in this planet, if we don't take this problem very seriously and change our mindset, soul-set, into a cooperative way to work with nature, and not to take advantage of nature - not only the government but the people, you know - with every little act, in our little day, in our little lives, if we don't take that seriously, well the problem is gonna grow bigger and bigger to a point that we will disappear, the human race. The problem is the human race. The planet can cure itself. It has been curing itself for a million years, millions of years, from the glacier eras, to the, you know, the ark, the flood, the Noah's ark. I mean, from ice to flood to fire, the world can survive. Every crisis, every climate change, it will make it evolve into a new form of life. The problem is not the planet. But the human race. We are going to disappear. We are not coming back, because we had our chance. We spoiled it. I mean, life is a miracle, very very fragile, and very strong at the same time. And if we lose that notion about the miracle, that casualty, no? Casualidad. Es una casualidad. We have very few possibilities to be here now. And if we lose that notion and take everything for granted. Well, it's not that easy. I mean, for me, since the moment I saw my son for the first time, I understood how fragile and how strong life is. And that transformed me. And well, the government and, you know not only the government, but a lot of the way society is now thinking about the environment problems is kind of a-- like a fashion. Like something like "Ohh I eat healthy, I go to the gym--" You know. I mean it is still in the superficial level and I mean it is... The change should be deeper, in order to be a real change. We cannot take this as we take fashion. We cannot take that luxury of leave it as the new wave. It's a new different mindset and soul-set. I don't know. But I think, again, if the government keeps that mood, well they will have to someday take it more seriously. Otherwise they are going to disappear. And then we, and every human thing. You know? It's the end. I don't wanna sound apocalyptic but it's fragile. Life is very fragile and we are not taking care of it properly. How can our government take care of life if they cannot water a tree? You saw what happened today. Want me to tell you?

Michelle: Yeah.

Lisandro: There was a project where our city officers were asked to plant a tree as a way to commit with these environmental issues. They were given a tree, one of the trees that we produced. Specifically the trees that were given were not produced by us but that's a different story, but it could be one of ours. The thing is that the trees stayed at the citizens' officers' offices waiting for a moment to be planted somewhere, I don't know, nobody knew, nobody had a clue what to do with those trees. So the commitment was a farce. And somebody noticed those trees were dying there at those dark offices, at the Town Hall. So they brought those trees back to our greenhouse. So, "You keep it. You take care of them, until we produce an event for the city officers to plant them." So they came back. Most of them were stressed, because of the lack of water. So they don't even water the trees they should water because they were committed to. How can we expect that they take care for us, for our problems, the human problems, they cannot take care of one single tree? Come on! I mean, I'm just being, you know, practical. So that's the government we have, which is the projection of what we are as a society. They are not just the bad guys. They did not come from Mars. I mean that's us.

Michelle: So, through your work with Un Arbol [Para Mi Vereda], do you think your perspective has changed since when you started compared to now?

Lisandro: Yes, absolutely. I do not remember what was my perspective five years ago, to be honest. (Let's park here.) I don't know, I mean, I wasn't so concerned for the environment five and a half years ago. I just had a kid, so--was "Oh, what am I gonna do with this?" At the beginning, I didn't care much for the garbage separation, you know, the plastics in one box and compost. I didn't care at all, to be honest. And when I started, you know, going deeper into these issues, then I developed this consciousness about, or perspective about what should be done. I mean, to be honest, it came along with the job. I wasn't like thinking and then, "Hm, this is what I'm going to do!" No, it was more like an impulse and then came along all the ideas, with the work. And so, the perspective. Yes definitely. Now I am a fighter, ambientalist fighter. But I'm not as combative. I'm not in the rage zone. But I am into the bridging gaps. That's what I do. I enjoy sitting at the table with the government or with companies, big companies that want to do something for the environment. And I'm glad to be the bridge. On our organization, we have all the different possibilities of an ambientalist fighter. The rage, the ones that want to, you know, put bombs, no (chuckle), bombs no, but change the world radically. And some of them are more into the business, or like, "we have to make this organization sustainable so we need to do this job with this big company that will give us money to do that" and you know. I'm glad that we have those minds too. I'm kind of in the middle, maybe more business oriented, but because I'm 43 I know that enthusiasm could at some point end. But if we have the fuel of money, I think that we could make a living out of what we love and the organization could last longer than our enthusiasm. And we also have bad days, you know? Days that we lose our faith in humans and the possibility of a change. So if it's only depending on our enthusiasm, well we should shut down business like three or four times a year. But if we have these projects, annual projects, with money involved, when you have big projects with money involved, you can last longer. Those are kind of the bridges to help us to continue with the task. And that's an interesting way to look at it because if we are the bridge for a big company towards the environment, at the same time the possibility to work with the system, inside of the system, is the bridge to sustain us along the way. And that is something different. It is not we the ambientalist, environmentalist, against the bad guys, and the big companies are the bad guys, and the government. No, the challenge is to work together with our differences. But I mean I'm not being romantic, idealistic fool. It's like I hate those guys, but I need to work with them because we have the same planet. And we have to take care of the same problems. They have kids, I have kids. I mean it's not about us anymore. It's about the future of the planet that we are leaving behind. I have some ideas that could work. You have some needs that maybe not be very honest or very... but you need to add some credits on environmental issues? OK. Let's work together. You will be the bad guy all the time, I would be the good guy in my own personal movie, but let's work together. Let's be on the same page, although we think differently about a lot of things. But when it comes to do something for the planet or for the future generations, we have to be on the same side. It's very difficult to talk about the same side because they are paying, we are doing a job. That's something that always makes-- you know. Remember this guy Karl Marx? It's in the way, you know, capitalism-- you know. But we cannot change the world without the bad guys. We're not trying to change them into the light side of the force. No, we're not Jedis. But we understand that we have to work together. I have an example. you know this company Monsanto? You know what they do? OK. They called us to have a meeting because they wanted to plant 4000 trees. And we went to them. And, well, imagine. Get the picture of, you know, the young guys, they are rage ambientalists. They said "Noo, noo, give them the finger!" They were like "no." I said, "OK no, of course not, we're not working with them. But I want to go to the meeting! I want to see their faces! They are human beings! I want to listen to them. And I want them to listen to me! I'm not gonna say nothing inappropriate, but I'm gonna... if they want to talk to me, I can answer back!" I went to that meeting and there was a tricky project because on one hand, on one side they wanted to plant trees to compensate their carbon footprint of their trucks. We were not talking about poisoning the land, or-- No, that was not in the conversation. But the trucks, carbon, OK. "So, you want to plant trees because of the trucks! OK, great. That's great, that's lovely." And you know I love that. "Would you like to take pictures of yourselves planting the trees?" "Oh yes, absolutely. We want to document the project." "Oh OK, great. And maybe you will have a Town Hall." Majors, no? "Not only in Buenos Aires but in the small cities around Buenos Aires, where you are planting?" "Yes, yes, of course. On the cities or the city officers, city officers involved." "Ohh great, great, great. And you would like us to be in the picture along together with you?" "Yes yes, of course. And the logo." OK. Let's talk about the logo. We cannot put our logo right next to Monsanto's. You understand why, no? No! Why? Well the things is that we can work together, but we are not letting them to fool us, you know, to buy our logo who has a good image, to clean, to do a greenwash on the Monsanto's logo. I mean that's the difficult side of working together with big companies. They want your logo. That's all they want, because their logo is losing the love of the people. Our logo is growing into-- I mean, our logo-- what are we talking about. People like us because we do things from our heart. I mean it's not just that but we are the good guys. So it's going to cost you a lot of money, and then we have to disappear, Monsanto. OK, you want my logo? OK so poof, I have to shut down the business. That was what was one possibility. We just said "No thank you. Maybe next time. See you later, alligator!" And that was it. But you know, I think reflecting on the future or thinking of the future, for me, the only way to make a deep change into the environment is to work with these bad guys, together, side-by-side, knowing these, you know, situations. And trying to do this restoration, environmental restoration jobs, but do them from within, no? Because otherwise, again this is just a fashion, just a logo, just a picture. If you do it from your heart, from your inner connection with yourself, then you're working with the universe and with the planet. And that is something that is not possible to capture in a picture. That's real. That is the change. And I would love to share this deep connection with the Monsanto people, but it is a lot of work. And they are not even listening. They just want the logo. So that is the difficult part to work in that way, in that path. But that is what we have to do, if we want to accomplish our goals.

Michelle: Wow! Thank you so much!

Lisandro: Thank you.