James Washington Sr. Interview 1

JENSEN: We want to thank you for being a part of our Engaging the Wisdom Oral History project. This is like really the core of it, um, and we really appreciate you driving down in this horrible weather, and being a part of it. Could you please tell us your name and current address.

WASHINGTON: Yes, my name is James Washington, Sr., 3214 Nichols Road, Kalamazoo.

JENSEN: Great. People sometimes have an interesting story to tell about their name.

Do you have one? What's the story of your name?

WASHINGTON: No story, just a big family and a long last name, you know, easy to remember.

JENSEN: Great. So are you originally from Springfield? Is that right?

WASHINGTON: Originally from Springfield, Illinois.

JENSEN: That's right. Can you tell us what it was like growing up there? What your

family was like?

WASHINGTON: Well, my family was of eleven children, and I was number eleven. And we grew up kind of, I would say that we were, if you compared it to today, we 00:01:00were probably on the poorer side, but at that time everybody was poor. So we didn't feel any difference, but we were, we came up and we had to struggle for bread sometimes, but it was a good life.

JENSEN: What were your mother and father like?

WASHINGTON: My mother and father. My mother she did housework, day work, and my father he worked on the train. They called it uh, the train from Springfield to Peoria, it was the Illiopolis. And he worked on that so he was gone quite a bit of the time, during the days, but, we -

JENSEN: What values or issues were important to your family, when you were growing up?

WASHINGTON: We were African American Methodist Episcopal Church, and we had some 00:02:00strict, ethical things that we had to go through. There were five girls and six of us boys, and so we - my mother was whatcha call very strict, and she didn't take no mess.

JENSEN: What about your father?

WASHINGTON: My father, he was kind of like the jovial one, you know. He kinda got us into trouble more than he kept us out of it (laughing).

JENSEN: What was that experience of growing up in that church like?

WASHINGTON: It was, it was a really experience--different type of experience, 'cause it was very organized and it was more or less you were silent in the church. We would go, we would go to church every Sunday. My mother would be sure that we went to church, and we didn't say much. We just kinda were there Children should be seen and not heard, and that was really strictly in the 00:03:00Methodist church.

JENSEN: Were you part of the whole services on Sunday, or was there kind of a younger kids' -

WASHINGTON: There was Sunday school, which was younger kids at first and then we became part of the whole worship service.

JENSEN: Okay. And you said it was an African-American church?

WASHINGTON: Yes, uh-huh. It was Saint John's AME. African American Episcopal.

JENSEN: When did you first become aware of race?

WASHINGTON: (chuckles) That's a, that's a tough question because, you know, we, we were always, I guess, I was always aware of it, of race, but it was a little bit different. It wasn't like the southern towns even though Springfield is in the southern part of Illinois. It was a little bit different. I mean we had integrated schools all the while, at least the whole time that I can remember.

JENSEN: So in that community of Springfield would you say that, how would you describe sort of racial relations in that town?

WASHINGTON: (clears throat) During, during my lifetime it was, the racial relations was, was good. It was there, but it was good. Of course, you know, Springfield has a history of some of the worst race riots in, in history.

JENSEN: How long did you live there for?

WASHINGTON: I lived there until I was eighteen years old.

JENSEN: And then you moved to Kalamazoo, is that right?

WASHINGTON: Yes, I came to Kalamazoo to go to Western Michigan University.

JENSEN: What was your experience at Western like?

WASHINGTON: It was kinda like my experiences in my hometown, you know. We, at that time, the university, children were different. We didn't mingle with the people in Kalamazoo at that time. I was studying music, and I was a member of 00:05:00the university choir, which became the

travelling choir, and so that made things a little bit difficult.

JENSEN: How were they difficult?

WASHINGTON: Well, at that time, there was, when the choir would travel there was a separation, you know, so that whites and blacks couldn't stay together. We had, there was young man, him and I were friends. He was white, and we were friends, and so we decided well we would room together when, when we traveled. Dr. Carter said, no, we could not do that. My brother at that time was president of the NAACP so when I informed him, him and Dr. Carter sat down and had a talk. And so we were able to room together, but we had to stay with a Negro family. We 00:06:00couldn't stay where everyone else was staying.

JENSEN: So the choir was integrated?

WASHINGTON: It was. There was three of us (laughing).

JENSEN: So what kind of places did you, (laughing) what kind of places did you travel around to?

WASHINGTON: Well there were, there were the small towns in Indiana and Ohio, especially in the northern part of, of Ohio. And we--we were well accepted there. There was never any incidents, except for we would always have to go off and stay with a Negro family where they, where they would not be with the others.

JENSEN: So it was all kind of Midwestern towns around here?

WASHINGTON: Yes, uh-huh.

JENSEN: (cough) What did, you said you were studying music, right?

WASHINGTON: Yes.

JENSEN: What were you planning on doing after college? Or why were you interested in music?

WASHINGTON: I was interested in music because everyone in my family sang, played an instrument, or something, so I was just kinda channeled that way. My, course 00:07:00I think I, I think I wanted to teach music, but not in uh, not in a classroom setting, but teach music individuals, and that way -

JENSEN: How'd you first get interested in singing, at choir?

WASHINGTON: Well, I was, there was a…practice session there at Maybee Hall, which was the music hall, and I started singing there and I got picked up by, by the choir director, and said, hey, you know, you should be in the choir. Are you a music student? I said, yes. So, I was in.

JENSEN: What do you remember the race, race relation situation to be like when you were a student in Kalamazoo?

WASHINGTON: Well, it was kinda like--sep-segregated. I mean, and I don't think it was because of the university. I think it was because of the individuals, you know. We stayed to ourselves. Blacks stayed to themselves, and whites stayed to themselves. The only interaction was in the, in the student union where we kinda 00:08:00were in the same area, but there really was no interaction between the two. Of course, that time there was a division on the campus, you know, the Western was on the old campus and the new campus and so it was, it was kinda the same thing. There was a union hall up on the old campus which were, was a little smaller so there was a little more interaction there.

JENSEN: So your class were all, were integrated?

WASHINGTON: Yes, uh-huh.

JENSEN: Would it be common for, for people of different races to be friends? Or was it, was it pretty segregated, would you say?

WASHINGTON: Again it was, it wasn't the university's choice. It was just the people just did not intermingle.

JENSEN: Why do you think that is?

WASHINGTON: I think that it just was something that, well blacks coming from the South learned that they wanted to be together, or they stayed together. They 00:09:00found that there was security in, in being together, so we just kinda mingled amongst ourselves.

JENSEN: Did you feel like you were treated fairly by professors and by other sort of administrative staff, or even by students?

WASHINGTON: I thought so. I never had a problem with, anyone showing any type of racism to me.

JENSEN: Did you have any awareness of Kalamazoo College in your idea of Kalamazoo?

WASHINGTON: (chuckles) Kalamazoo College was just un-, was just there. It wasn't really on the map (laughing), but it was there.

JENSEN: (cough) So after you graduated you worked at Gibson, is that right?

WASHINGTON: Yes, I worked at Gibson Guitar Manufacturing.

JENSEN: Can you tell me what your job was, what you did during the day?

WASHINGTON: I was in shipping, and for that company I was the first black to be hired there, and I'd worked in shipping and there was only one incident and the 00:10:00union took care of that right away. I was, 'member the probably the second or third morning I came to work, and the white guy standing next to me says, "Hullo Sunshine," and course that's a derogatory term, but when I talked to the union steward, they pulled him to the side, and said, hey, you know, if you're gonna work here, you better get used to it. So he never, ever had another bad comment. In fact, he became quite friendly.

JENSEN: So Gibson was pretty, was pretty accepting of that, they were supportive of you as the first black man working there?

WASHINGTON: They were. Yes, they were.

JENSEN: When they, when they hired you were they, did they talk about it sort of with pride or were they kind of disdainful that they had to hire you or was it positive for them?

WASHINGTON: No, the word that I got was that they were looking to hire a black and, and so I just happened to fit right in.

JENSEN: Great. So you worked on the police force in Kalamazoo, is that right? And in Detroit?

WASHINGTON: Just in Kalamazoo. I, when I came, left um, Gibson, I went to Western Michigan University to, and I was a, on the uh, security force there, and I worked there for two years, and then I went to the city of Kalamazoo Police Department.

JENSEN: Okay. What was your, what was, what were those first two years like on the police force? Security force, I guess.

WASHINGTON: It was, it was okay. I think I was, I noted that I was the first black to be on the Safety, so I was probably looked at a little bit harder than some of the others that were coming on, but they didn't show no overt action toward me, and I was accepted by the students very well.

JENSEN: While you were working as a police officer in Kalamazoo what was that like in terms of your experiences of race, or were you the first African American hired there too?

WASHINGTON: No, there were several before me, but I, at the time I went on there was just two of us, a gentleman by the name Al Goodwin, who is deceased now. He was in the traffic division, and I was, I came in in the patrol division. It was, it was a strange feeling because when, I guess you, when I came on I guess you could write a book and call it black pig in a pen, because I lived on the Northside which was predominantly black and I would come, have to leave the Northside and go become a member of the police department, which wasn't looked 00:13:00at very well, and so it was, I always had some fears about my home being in there, and I would be gone off someplace.

JENSEN: Who didn't look at that very well?

WASHINGTON: Well, it was the, the white people of Kalamazoo was not really glad to have a black police officer that they would have to answer to. In fact, I stopped a white man in his car one day on Gull Road, 'cause he had run a stop sign, and so he says, oh they're, you're gonna meet your quota today, and I said, no, they let us write as many as we want. So, he didn't like that, in fact, [laughing] my lieutenant told me, you know, we don't make--that type of statement to people, but then again, on the other hand, I was with, with black people at that time. They were not really satisfied. They were suspicious, because here, you know, I might be a turncoat, and I'm gonna, I might know some 00:14:00of the things that's going on and turn everybody in, you know, so it was really walking a tight line. I would, at that time I was going to a Baptist church, and we would go to church, and we would get stares from people because they, they were suspicious of me.

JENSEN: So you didn't work within your own community, you kind of left it to work in a different one as a police officer?

WASHINGTON: First I did. I worked outside of the community, but then I, as you, I get to be seasoned, you get a district, and my district was right in the heart of the neighborhood.

JENSEN: Okay. So what was it like those first couple of years when people were sort of, I don't know if "suspicious" is the right word, but…

WASHINGTON: It was kinda like, being in, having to walk a tightrope, that's kinda, like in a pen. Pent in, you know. One side, you look at that side, they don't like you, and here you, over here, they don't like you, so that's…

JENSEN: How did you manage that, that tension?

WASHINGTON: Well, I think some of my um, uh family background was helpful because, you know, I was a member, being a member of eleven in the family, thirteen with mother and father. We were just, everybody was friendly and, and so it would help me get along with people, and so I was able to blend as much as I could.

JENSEN: Did any of your other family, any of your siblings, move to Kalamazoo, or live in Kalamazoo with you?

WASHINGTON: Yes, uh-huh, before I came, my brother, who is Arthur WASHINGTON Junior. He was a member, or resident here in Kalamazoo, and I came, and I stayed with him for that summer before school started. But, he became the first black city commissioner in the city of Kalamazoo.

JENSEN: Did you have a good relationship with him?

WASHINGTON: Sure. He was my oldest brother, and [laughing] you know, older 00:16:00brothers, they'll beat you down if you don't act right.

JENSEN: What was he like?

WASHINGTON: He was a good guy. He was a Civil-Rights man, you know. He became president of the NAACP, and he kinda helped form a drumming bugle corps here in town that kept the kids active. He was, he was, you know, an active person and very friendly with everybody. He kinda understood my relationship being, having to be on one side town that sometimes, and back on the other side.

JENSEN: Did you ever sort of [cough] get involved in any of the things he was doing? Or was it kind of you were doing your own thing as a police officer and he was doing his thing?

WASHINGTON: Oh, I, I got involved in, in a couple of his things, and he had a drummer bugle corps card called the Kalamazoo Bombardiers, and I helped train the drummers and the buglers. So I worked with him on that, and I got involved with the, couple of his Civil-Rights activities. At that time, he was, he was 00:17:00with the NAACP, and we had to, it was Civil-Rights era was moving on pretty good. We picketed Van Avery drugstore. [cough] 'scuse me. So I walked that picket line, together.

JENSEN: What's Van Avery's Drugstore?

WASHINGTON: Van Avery's Drugstore was located at the corner of North and, and Burdick. And this, right there now is the Ecumenical Senior Citizens' place, but that was a drugstore that they, they were, they were there, and they allowed you to come in and buy your groceries, I mean, your medicines and your prescriptions, but they would not hire, and that was the main reason that the picket line was set up. They just wouldn't hire blacks, and so…

JENSEN: Did they, was that something they said, or was that something they sort of showed with the way they hired people?

WASHINGTON: That showed with the way they hired people. They were, they were pretty fair people. In fact, you know, I was dating my wife, we used to go 00:18:00there. They had the soda fountain, and we were, when I was dating my wife, we would go there, and we would have a fountain soda or a sundae, and they served us, there was no problem with that. It was just that they would not hire any blacks in the store.

JENSEN: What was, from your perspective, what was the, sort of civil rights situation of Kalamazoo like? You said you participated in that picketing of that drugstore.

WASHINGTON: It uh, at that time, it was just beginning to um, to, to get to the point where there was gonna be an explosion, you know, um, that night. That was 'round '66, '67. Um, uh, I, I was a member of the police department and they had a certain amount of riots going on in the city. And we, they even had a, a demonstration up at Western in the student union. The um, um organization locked themselves--took over the student union--and locked themself inside. Well, you 00:19:00know, I was a member of the police force and we marched up in riot gear and uh, it--they didn't, they didn't really appreciate that, but [laughing] being a member of the force and a member, and, and one of the things they teach you is that you're blue now. You're not white, not black; you're blue. So, that was the thing, and mostly we had to march up in gear and take the student union back.

JENSEN: How did, I mean, you said you're, you're blue, you're not, like was it easy to sort of remove yourself from your police work?

WASHINGTON: It, it was, at first it wasn't, but as, as you, as we go into it, and we find that, you know, more and more and more of your are accepted. You know, I used to go, when I first, 'member I first on the police department. I would go in, and I would be on the second or third shift, which would be the afternoon or the midnight, and would go in, and we always had locker room. We dressed there, and put our uniform on. Well, they put pictures of little black Sambo on my locker, and eating watermelon, and things like that, but you know, 00:20:00uh, we just had to get through that, you know, you, you report it to your sergeant and then sometimes they'll take it off, or they'd go, when we go into our briefing he would bring that up, but over time they found that, you know, we had to rely upon each other, and that I would be no different, that uh, I was reliable to them.

JENSEN: So did, did that sort of antagonism end at some point? Or was it ongoing?

WASHINTGON: Yeah, it did end because at that point we did hire, there was about four or five recruits that came in that were black, so there was actually about seven of us on the Kalamazoo Police Department. And uh, it, it got to be, it eased up then because people were more acceptable, or they saw that they could do nothin' about it.

JENSEN: Seven out of how many, would you say?

WASHINGTON: Probably about a hundred and twenty-five.

JENSEN: Okay. Um, you, [coughs] you talked about that um, drugstore incident; 00:21:00how did it feel to be a part of that? Was it, was it empowering? Was it something you felt like you had to do? Was it something--

WASHINGTON: Uh, I think, I think that at the time it was something that we had to do, and, and we wanted change so we had to do that. I never thought that the store would close up because of that--

JENSEN: Oh really?

WASHINGTON: --but rather than hire blacks, they closed their doors.

JENSEN: Well, huh. Are there any other specific events that you can remember besides the, the occupation of the union and that drugstore picket that you were a part of, or that you know happened in Kalamazoo?

WASHINGTON: Well, yeah, they, we had the, the so-called small riots, you know. They would throw bot's at cars, rocks at cars, and bottles, and, and things like that, and we would have to put our unif--our riot gear on and go down, and, and uh, disperse the crowds, and things like that.

JENSEN: Did you--you talked a little bit about how [clears throat] near the beginning you felt uh, sort of antagonized by both your community and the people you were trying to serve. When you were a part of the police force and you were, you were ordered to break up those Civil Rights protests, did you get antagonism from anyone? From your family? From your friends?

WASHINGTON: Uh, not from my family, but uh, the people that were involved in, in the disturbance um, yeah, they would shout. They would shout slurs, and you know, "black pig," and those type of things.

JENSEN: Mm-hmm.

WASHINGTON: But you know, we, you gotta try to bring order anyway.

JENSEN: Mm-hmm. While you were a police officer [clears throat] do you think that your race allowed you to, uh, understand situations differently than some of the other police officers, or act in a different way?

WASHINGTON: Yeah, I think so. I think that I had more compassion than some of the other police officers, you know. Um, particularly I remember one incident 00:23:00where I had stopped a man that looked like he was intoxicated in his vehicle, and I stopped, pulled him over, and so happened, I pulled him over right in front of his house. So I went up and knocked on the door, [clears throat] 'scuse me, and told his wife, if you take the keys, but if I see the car moved during the night, I was gonna be on patrol here, if I saw the car moved during the night that I would arrest him and have the car towed. Well, I had a white partner with me, and we, after we, the incident, I took him into the house, told his wife to keep him there, and then when I went back in in the morning, my partner told my sergeant and lieutenant that I had done this, and so I was suspended for three days [laughing] without pay.

JENSEN: Um, [coughs] while you were a police officer did you ever, I guess, might be more relevant to these, the Civil Rights protest that you were um, sort 00:24:00of trying to stop um, did you ever feel like you were ordered or told to do something that you couldn't in good conscience do, or were you always sort of understood why you need to do something and could go through with it?

WASHINGTON: Right, I never was ordered to do anything that I felt I couldn't do. I um, I understood the, the law and I understood what had to be done and for reasons why I did not, you know. Martin Luther King was not that way. He was passive uh, resistance, and so to see the violence coming out, I was against that.

JENSEN: Hmm. So both those--those protests were violent?

WASHINGTON: Well, with rock throwing, and bottle throwing, and, and you know, property damages--yes, I'd say it was violent.

JENSEN: Mm-hmm. So would you say the, the Civil Rights situation in Kalamazoo was more violent or was more peaceful protests, or which, which did you see more of?

WASHINGTON: Well, I, I saw--lemme, lemme say that I was in Detroit at the time that the Detroit riot broke out--

JENSEN: Oh, in sixty-seven?

WASHINGTON: We, we didn't have anything like that here in Kalamazoo, but we did have uh, window breakings, and the car damages, and you know, we had um, maybe a small fire here and there, but we didn't have the um, total rioting that was done there in Detroit.

JENSEN: Were you a police officer during those riots there in Detroit?

WASHINGTON: I was a police officer here in Kalamazoo, but I was on my day off and I went to see the Tigers. [laughs]

JENSEN: Did they win?

WASHINGTON: They had won. I woke up the next morning, we's staying at a hotel right there on Woodward, my wife and I, and we woke up and went down for breakfast, and the waitress says, "You the people aren't from here?" And I said, "No," and she says, "When you go, go back that way [gestures]. Don't go that way [gestures], 'cause they're rioting down there." When we came out of the restaurant we could see all the smoke in the sky, so we headed for Ninety-Four. [laughs]

JENSEN: [laughs] Do you have any regrets about your time on the police force?

WASHINGTON: None, no regrets. I um, the thing that, my wife was a little bit fearful because I would leave home at midnight and have to go to work. The, the, the regret was that there was no steady shift. I'd work two weeks of midnight, two weeks of days, and two weeks of afternoons, and so that, that caused a disturbance and that was one, that was the main reason I left the police department.

JENSEN: You talked a little bit about Martin Luther King, [coughs] um, how did you see the Kalamazoo Civil Rights struggles as related to sort of a more national struggle?

WASHINGTON: Well I thought, I saw that the, the, some of the same things were kinda goin' on, even as they are today, but they're so undercurrent. Um, the school situation, for instance, in Kalamazoo, at that time, was that you, we were beginning to have a totally um, black school, versus a white school, and 00:27:00that uh, there was uh, the best teachers were naturally not coming to the black schools. So I think that was uh, one of the things that had to come about. Busing, which I'm not really in favor of it now, because I say the school of choice is takin' all that away from, so people who can go to the school of choice so we're still, we're ending up with pretty, pretty ethnic schools.

JENSEN: Mm-hmm. Um, how did you, [coughs] how did you become, or how did you sort of get--how did you become part of that um, drugstore protest? Or was it because your brother was doing it, or was it because you sort of came to that decision on your own, or…

WASHINGTON: Oh, no. He, it was because my brother was doin' it, and, and he explained why he was doin' it, and why they were doin' it, and I agreed and got into it.

JENSEN: So you can't--are there--can you think of any other events or some--or 00:28:00activism in Kalamazoo during that time?

WASHINGTON: Um, no. I think that during that time, that was pretty much the thing that was going on. We, we um, they marched on city hall uh, to tell our displeasure with some of the things that were going on, but in, I think that the city did begin to do more hiring of, of blacks at that time, so the uh, Kalamazoo Police Department was probably the slowest to hire uh, blacks, because it was, they were just totally a um, fraternity type organization that didn't want to be cracked.

JENSEN: Mm-hmm. What, what other sort of changes did you see come about from those struggles? You said the hiring improved. Was there anything else?

WASHINGTON: Um, basically I think that people got, had coming from that and along with the um, when the Civil Rights movement came through, people got to 00:29:00where they say, you know, why not? We should belong and we should be able to go, and we should be able to come. Because, it, and those are the things that, that did come about, where um, when, as the restaurant situation grew in Kalamazoo uh, there was really no problem with blacks being served um, but it's still today the most segregated hour is Sunday morning.

JENSEN: You said you were part of a Baptist church in Kalamazoo.

WASHINGTON: Yes. Uh-huh.

JENSEN: What was that experience like?

WASHINGTON: Well, it was really tough for me, because I came, as I said I come from a Methodist background, Methodist church which is totally a uh, what do you call it, you know, they go through all the rituals and format where the Baptist church was a little bit more loose, and they didn't have that ritual so to speak, and uh, I started going to the Baptist church because that's, my wife was 00:30:00a Baptist and I wanted to try to hit on her [laughs] so I started going to the Baptist church and then I have come to where I really love it, so that's…I, every now and then I go back to my home town, I do go back to that Methodist church to, to see it and it's the same way, now, I mean they still have the same rituals and the, and so, it's different, completely different.

JENSEN: What's it like going back to your hometown?

WASHINGTON: It's, going back to my hometown, I still have some sisters and brothers living there and I, and it's kind of getting like--actually really like Kalamazoo because it's about the same size, Springfield is as Kalamazoo. There's colleges there, there's some work and so it's really not much difference in going back. Just to see my relatives, that's great

JENSEN: Yeah. Do you have kids?

WASHINGTON: I have three children; two girls and a boy. They're all grown. And, 00:31:00and uh, they're, they're all here in Kalamazoo. They didn't move away. [chuckles] My oldest daughter works for K-RESA and my son, he uh, he owns his own car lot, Jay's Auto Sales, and my youngest daughter, she is disabled.

JENSEN: What did you do--or how long were you on the police force in Kalamazoo?

WASHINGTON: I was on the police department about five and a half years.

JENSEN: What did you do after that?

WASHINGTON: Well, I went into real estate. I became the uh, a real estate salesman, and didn't make any money, and uh, my wife was in real estate sales too, and we didn't make any money. [laughs] That was an area where, you know, if you didn't sell a house to a black person you weren't going to sell a house because whites still did not trust the blacks to handle their money, so to 00:32:00speak, or their real estate. Uh, I did um, one day the, the wife and I were sitting in the Mars Thrifty Acres parking lot on Patterson. There was a Mars Thrifty Acres there right there where that um, church is. And we were sitting there in the parking lot and I had to go get groceries so I had to use the charge card and I said, you know, this ain't going to work. So the next day I went out and got a job at First Federal Savings and Loan as a sales, as a savings counselor and my wife went and got a job at an attorney's office, so we decided that this, that real estate wasn't for us at this time.

JENSEN: What was that job like?

WASHINGTON: Um, the First Federal? Um, it was a good job, and I first went in as a savings counselor um taking all the training that they had to give me. It was at first, it was a little slow because people did not trust you, you tell them 00:33:00how, what account to put the money in and weren't sure that you were going able to, as a black I was going, was I going to give them the best advice. But as time went on things, people did, and then I went from savings counselor to a real estate loan officer using my real estate background, and I became assistant vice president at First Federal Savings and Loans. I stayed there for thirteen years and then I kind of got burnt out there, and so I opened up my own business. It was called the Whatnot Box. It sits, it was on Douglas street right there at, right off North street on Douglas used to be a 7/11, and so I bought that building and renovated it and became a store that was a convenience store. 00:34:00And then I kind of got tired of that because I was getting up every morning and every night going to bed late so I did sell that, and then I moved on from there. Went back into real estate only this time I became a broker.

JENSEN: [coughs] Um, it's changing the topic a little bit, but do you remember where you were when Martin Luther King was assassinated? [coughs]

WASHINGTON: Uh, I believe I was uh, in, in my store, at the, at the Whatnot Box. I was there and someone came in and told me.

JENSEN: What was that like?

WASHINGTON: Very, very devastating. I was, actually, I didn't believe it was real, that someone could actually do that, you know? That was worse than losing Kennedy. I knew then there was going to be a lot of, of violence going on.

JENSEN: Did you see yourself as part of the Civil Rights struggle in Kalamazoo? Or were you sort of, or did you see yourself as a little more distant from it?

WASHINGTON: Uh, lemme, lemme say I knew that I was always part of the Civil Rights movement. Um, I did not feel it that intense. I didn't feel no problem, and, and I never had anyone tell me I couldn't do this or I couldn't go there and don't do this. I felt that I was okay with everything that was going on I just, was aware of it, I felt that I was a part of it.

JENSEN: Speaking from the present, how do you think things have changed since you were younger in Kalamazoo?

WASHINGTON: For the better. I think that there was a time when we didn't have 00:36:00nearly as many problems as we have today of course, and during the civil rights movement when the freedoms that we were gaining in the south, we were gaining some of those, the feeling of it here in the north. But now I feel that some of our people--excuse me--especially the young ones, they don't remember the struggles that were put on, that people have gone through and so they're allowing some of the freedoms to slip away.

JENSEN: Have you tried to bring that awareness to your kids?

WASHINGTON: I bring it to mine. But outside of my own family I haven't tried.

JENSEN: What are you doing now?

WASHINGTON: Right now I'm retired. I do work with children at Lincoln School during the day. I'm activity helper and so I do work with kindergarten through 00:37:00fifth grade.

JENSEN: Going back to when you were working at Gibson, was it difficult being the only African-American employee there? Was it hard to find people who understood yo, or did you end up becoming close with some of the people who worked there?

WASHINGTON: At first it was very difficult because, you know, at all factories you have time when you go to lunch, and when you go to lunch no one is going to sit by you, and no one is going to talk to you, so. But then, after the only incident, that I was called "sunshine," the man who did it, he grew a lot closer to me and started coming over and talking to me, and in fact he would come and sit with me for lunch and It loosened a lot of the people up.

JENSEN: Do you think he was being genuine?

WASHINGTON: I think he was. I think he really didn't know that that was a racial slur.

JENSEN: Do you think that was a common experience of say white people? Why do you think sort of everyday people in Kalamazoo would say things like that to African Americans in Kalamazoo?

WASHINGTON: Well I think that the majority of them, I think that the majority of the white people do not know that that, that's a slur. They don't know that, because history doesn't tell it that that was a name that was used in the South and they'd call every, every black person "sunshine" if he had a smile on his face, he would be called "sunshine". And so they just didn't, they don't know, the history book surely doesn't tell you and I don't think they were taught that in their home

JENSEN: While you were on the police force--excuse me, sorry--did you, you end 00:39:00up becoming close with other people on the force? How long, what was the experience of, what was the experience like of getting to know people who maybe held assumptions about you or who maybe didn't think very critically about where you had come from or though they knew things about you? What was that like?

WASHINGTON: Well they, that was a different experience. One of the experiences on the police department was that, you know, this was a, they called themselves, everybody is blue, everybody is blue except they didn't look at you the same way they looked at their white counterparts. They always had that you were 00:40:00different. And that probably went on for a long time with the police department and they'll tell you today it's not there but it really is still there.

JENSEN: Was that true all the way up to the higher up people?

WASHINGTON: All the way. All the way up. I can, I can remember that um, the, there was a young man that, that this time we had probably about ten blacks on the police department. And the young man one day went home, and he had an argument with his wife, a disagreement and so the police were called when he got, when the police got there the sergeant was called and the sergeant fired him, they called him, fired him because conduct unbecoming a police officer. He was in his own home of course. So we all had the black flu after that the next day, the next three days, and we met with Chief Fox, that's who was, Chief Fox, and he promised us a lot of things, and just like, um, I guess we were gullible 00:41:00and we, we ate it up and so we went back to work and everything was smoothed out. But the young man that got fired he didn't get hired back.

JENSEN: So you said he promised these changes, did that, did you ever see those happening?

WASHINGTON: No. Not, not in my lifetime on the police department and none of the others, in fact none of the people who were there stayed very long after that.

JENSEN: I'm not--I don't know what it's like to be a police officer, but from what I've come to understand, you've got to be able to trust your partner and you've got to have a sort of really close, a close relationship with them.

WASHINGTON: Mm-hmm.

JENSEN: Was that ever difficult for you, um, working with white officers, or did you ever see that as difficult for them working with you?

WASHINGTON: Um… It was, that was a, that was very tough situations and we, we went through, went through bar fights, we went through the disturbances on the 00:42:00North side, we, we went through car stops and speed chases, and…It was, I think that why we were there doing the job we, we had to learn and I think we learned pretty fast that we had to trust each other while we were there. But we, there wasn't, there really wasn't much mingling outside of the police department.

JENSEN: Why do you think that is if you, if you went through so much together?

WASHINGTON: I think it was, at that time, it was strictly a white/black situation. It wasn't Kosher to, for you to be buddy with a black. And not be in, wear that uniform and be part of the fraternity.

JENSEN: So you felt this, there's a pressure from this sort of fraternity of policemen, you think?

WASHINGTON: Mm-hmm. I think that was an inside working, the people there they just didn't, didn't get it.

JENSEN: Did you ever, did you ever, try to change that, or were you, did you, I 00:43:00don't want to say "accept it" cause that sound bad, but, but sort of understand why, why that was?

WASHINGTON: Well, I think I did because I had to.

JENSEN: Yeah.

WASHINGTON: And working in the situation you have to, you have to rely upon them, and you know that they're relying upon you, at that time. And, you know, you get a…an alarm where there's been breaking and entering and you got to go out there and back, do your back up, you're doing the back up. And then, you know…You know that they're counting on you to be, to have their back and so they, they figure that out. It's just that when you left there, there was no comradeship.

JENSEN: And you, did you see the comradeship between the two different groups within themselves but just not, not mixing over?

WASHINGTON: Right.

JENSEN: Ok.

WASHINGTON: I mean, we would, we would go to our place and they would go to 00:44:00their place. [laughs]

JENSEN: While you were, while you were say answering those calls or dealing with things as they came up, would you, while you were working with your partner, would you say you, uh… Let's say you were dealing with something where it involved black people, would you say that you, you… How do I phrase this? Would your partner rely on you more in that situation? Or would you say you sort of worked equally together as a team?

WASHINGTON: We worked equally together as a team. You know, was one instance we were raiding a house up and there was an after hour joint and this was involving mostly, mostly black people. And we were going to raid this house because up in, and they had the diagram they, out there and in this top bedroom was this guy from Detroit, he was a drug dealer and they said underneath his mattress he 00:45:00has this shotgun. And so when we hit the door there was myself and, and Bill Amsberry, he was a white guy, we were to go straight up the, up the stairs and into that room. That was the first, that was all we had to do, the arrests were going to handle the crowd situation. Well, when we hit the door we bounced off of the door. I told, I looked over at Amsberry and they said, "Hit it again!" And, you know, I looked over at him and I said, "We are dead." [laughs] But we did, we went in there, but the guy was busy and evidently didn't hear that first thud, and we went up the stairs and kicked in the door, bedroom door and we racked the shot guns of course he, he gave up right away. But I just told him, "We are dead, man." We had to go up them stairs. But that's called working together though.

JENSEN: You talked about sort of working outside of your community as a police officer. Were…when you were working in your community was there any 00:46:00perception of you still as that kind of informant or something, or was it, was it mostly when you were outside of it?

WASHINGTON: Well, when…and it's a difference, you know. When you worked in the community, and when I'd come into the Northside for instance, where I'm dealing particularly with black people, it's, they were like I was a super hero. You know, cause lot of the, lot of the people, they understood that you had--but they were glad to see me come rather than a white cop because they felt that they would--I would probably listen to their side of the situation more so than, than the other. And then, but, then I'd go on the other side of town when I was out in, in maybe a white neighborhood, there was a more suspicion of me there than there was over on that side.

JENSEN: What was living on the Northside like?

WASHINGTON: Living on the North side was, it was living in, in your own 00:47:00community, so you felt safe while you were there. I did. I felt that living around everybody, it was great. I mean, because we, we had comradeship and, you know, the neighbor was a neighbor to a neighbor, hi neighbor. It uh, the thing I didn't feel comfortable about was my wife wasn't comfortable because I had, she would be home alone with the kids and I would be gone all night long.

JENSEN: So going back to when you were in Detroit briefly, you were, you didn't, you didn't sort of go to the riots you just kind of got out of town as fast as you could?

WASHINGTON: I just, just got out of town as fast as I could. [laughs] I looked and saw the smoke billowing, and I said, "Ok we're going this way." I could, I 00:48:00could hear some of the gunfire from where I was though. But I just…

JENSEN: How do you see Kalamazoo as part of the sort of wider civil rights activity in the U.S. or in Michigan?

WASHINGTON: I felt, I feel that Kalamazoo was probably a middle ground area. They were in, in Kalamazoo particularly we, we had a- we didn't have a congested area. I mean there, there were still whites living on the North side and on the East side so, you know, it, it just wasn't a congested area like you did in Detroit and, and so it was a better, more of a middle ground area.

JENSEN: So because there wasn't as much sort of forced mixing it was, it was sort of easier to deal with the tension?

WASHINGTON: Yes. It was, it was a lot easier. And, and I think that that's why 00:49:00Kalamazoo kind of was more mellow area.

JENSEN: Mm-hmm. I think we're out of time. That's the last question I have. So, thank you so much for being part of this. I really appreciate you taking time out of your day.

WASHINGTON: Yeah.

JENSEN: It's been great to talk to you.