Noor_Ms. Mussarat Shahid Mushadhi_Reimaging Linguistic Diversity of Pakistani Languages

Transcription: Interviewing Ma’am Mussarat

[ 00:01:00 - 00:02:00] Assalamu alaikum. Today we have Ms. Musarrat. Thank you for taking time out for us, ma'am, today for this interview of the course Language Documentation.

[ 00:03:00 - 00:04:00] Ms. Musarrat is Assistant Professor, PhD Scholar and the Head of Writing Center. Shall we start, ma'am?

[ 00:05:00 - 00:06:00] Sure, go ahead. Thank you very much for inviting me.

[ 00:07:00 - 00:08:00] I am very happy that you are here with us today.

[ 00:09:00 - 00:10:00] My name is Rashad. So our lines go back to Iran. And my father used to be very, very particular about us speaking Persian when we were young. And he also got us enrolled in a school which was run by an Iranian lady, Lely Begum.

[ 00:11:00 - 00:12:00] So we lived in Karachi. And my father used to speak to us.

[ 00:13:00 - 00:14:00] And in Persian, he used to tell us Iqbal's Kalam in Persian, explain it to us.

[ 00:15:00 - 00:16:00] So, but in the beginning, when we were young, we were speaking Persian to some extent, but I think it was not very long term, or I should I should say, it did not last too much because we were surrounded by people.

[ 00:17:00 - 00:18:00] We were surrounded with Urdu and most of the time English.

[ 00:19:00 - 00:20:00] So that was the language we used to speak outside our home. In schools and...

[ 00:21:00 - 00:22:00] Yes. So in the at home, we were speaking Persian, English, Urdu, a mixture of all of this.

[ 00:23:00 - 00:24:00] Right, right, right. Okay, so we have specific terms. And could you please tell us how you would address them in Persian?

[ 00:25:00 - 00:26:00] So what would you, what would be mother in Persian? Mother. Right. Father. Father.

[ 00:27:00 - 00:28:00] Maternal grandfather. Or grandparents. Grandfather. Grandfather. Right, right. And brother.

[ 00:29:00 - 00:30:00] Brother, brother. Sister. Sister. Uncle and aunt. Uncle, aunt. Right. Uncle.

[ 00:31:00 - 00:32:00] We say uncle. Right, right, right.

[ 00:33:00 - 00:34:00] Okay, so can you share a particularly meaningful or ancient oral tradition from your hometown that you believe should be preserved for future generations or should be passed on?

[ 00:35:00 - 00:36:00] Okay, so we used to, when we were growing up, we used to celebrate Nowruz. Right.

[ 00:37:00 - 00:38:00] Nowruz and that is the first day of spring, 21st of March. Right.

[ 00:39:00 - 00:40:00] I feel that since...

[ 00:41:00 - 00:42:00] Since the time that we are now influenced with colonization and with British way of dealing with things, to the extent that our calendar is also, you know...

[ 00:43:00 - 00:44:00] Has changed. Yes, so that's the Julian calendar. Yes, yes. So we don't refer to our Islamic calendar.

[ 00:45:00 - 00:46:00] But in the same way, we do not... We did not preserve the Persian calendar.

[ 00:47:00 - 00:48:00] So in the Persian calendar, Nowruz, the first day of spring, is celebrated. And we...

[ 00:49:00 - 00:50:00] I am from the Shia tradition.

[ 00:51:00 - 00:52:00] So we believe in the Shia tradition that Hazrat Ali was given his first...

[ 00:53:00 - 00:54:00] That is the first day of his coming to the throne. Right, right. So that's why we celebrate Nowruz.

[ 00:55:00 - 00:56:00] Okay. So I think that... Okay. So I think that...

[ 00:57:00 - 00:58:00] From the Shia tradition, Nowruz as the first day of spring should be celebrated. Yes. And what we do in...

[ 00:59:00 - 01:00:00] To celebrate that is to have all the...

[ 01:01:00 - 01:02:00] Because you realize that in March, most of the fruits are available.

[ 01:03:00 - 01:04:00] Most of the flowers are available. So what we do is we have a seven color Dastarkhwan.

[ 01:05:00 - 01:06:00] Oh, wow. So we have seven... So we have seven colors on that.

[ 01:07:00 - 01:08:00] And the dishes that we prepare for that day are also of seven colors. Right, right, right.

[ 01:09:00 - 01:10:00] So it's a beautiful function. And then in the evening, what we do is...

[ 01:11:00 - 01:12:00] And that's, again, so mixed. This is cultural and religious tradition mixed.

[ 01:13:00 - 01:14:00] So in the evening, nearing Maghreb, what we do is we have a bowl of...

[ 01:15:00 - 01:16:00] A bowl of... And in that, we put rose petals.

[ 01:17:00 - 01:18:00] So at the time, we say that it was the time of Hazrat Ali coming to the throne.

[ 01:19:00 - 01:20:00] All the petals come to a standstill in that bowl. So it denotes that. Yeah.

[ 01:21:00 - 01:22:00] So we all celebrate it and we... It's a lovely time of the year for us. And peak spring in March.

[ 01:23:00 - 01:24:00] Yes, peak spring. Beginning of spring. Beginning of spring. So... So... So... So... What are some of the challenges that you and your community face

[ 01:25:00 - 01:26:00] in preserving your culture and traditions?

[ 01:27:00 - 01:28:00] So, you know, as I said that it's been, I think, fourth generation that we have come to Pakistan.

[ 01:29:00 - 01:30:00] So are my grandfathers. They...

[ 01:31:00 - 01:32:00] When they came to Pakistan, they were Sayyids and they were driven out from Iran.

[ 01:33:00 - 01:34:00] Okay, so there were four grandfathers. So we have our own Shajra. They came here as refugees in Pakistan.

[ 01:35:00 - 01:36:00] They came here because they were driven out of Iran because they were killing the Sayyids at that time and the Shias. In Iran. Yes.

[ 01:37:00 - 01:38:00] So they came to Pakistan. Right, right. So since then, so we settled in Pakistan.

[ 01:39:00 - 01:40:00] This is the fourth generation that we are here.

[ 01:41:00 - 01:42:00] But my father, grandfather, they tried to keep the language intact.

[ 01:43:00 - 01:44:00] They tried to keep the traditions and the culture.

[ 01:45:00 - 01:46:00] But I think that it's not really, it was, it's sad that we were not able to preserve it.

[ 01:47:00 - 01:48:00] And then my father was very, very, he was adamant that we sisters go to the Parsi school

[ 01:49:00 - 01:50:00] because in the Parsi school in Karachi, Persian was spoken.

[ 01:51:00 - 01:52:00] So there was a lot of Parsi community that spoke Persian. Yes.

[ 01:53:00 - 01:54:00] And we used to practice that. So there we got the practice.

[ 01:55:00 - 01:56:00] But then, sadly, all, you know, over the last 30 years, all my friends who are Parsis have now left Pakistan.

[ 01:57:00 - 01:58:00] That's another very unfortunate situation.

[ 01:59:00 - 02:00:00] Where, you know, I think that we have lost our tolerance somehow towards other cultures.

[ 02:01:00 - 02:02:00] And communities. And communities. So people like Agha Khanis. Yes.

[ 02:03:00 - 02:04:00] I also speak Gujarati and understand Gujarati because I grew up in Gujarati families. You know, they were my friends in school.

[ 02:05:00 - 02:06:00] So those Gujaratis were also Parsis. So Parsis who spoke Gujarati. So they came from Gujarat, India's Gujarat.

[ 02:07:00 - 02:08:00] Right, right. So they were also settled in Karachi. And there was a huge Parsi community there.

[ 02:09:00 - 02:10:00] So we used to be very, very close to the Parsi community because, number one, they spoke Persian.

[ 02:11:00 - 02:12:00] Number two, that they were my class fellows. Number three, that my father's, because my father was in Merchant Navy.

[ 02:13:00 - 02:14:00] And he, so the company that he worked for was owned by Parsis.

[ 02:15:00 - 02:16:00] So Parsis were really very affluent, influential people at that time.

[ 02:17:00 - 02:18:00] I'm talking about early 60s and then early 70s.

[ 02:19:00 - 02:20:00] Till early 70s, this remained the way Pakistan or Karachi was known as, as a cosmopolitan.

[ 02:21:00 - 02:22:00] Right, right. City.

[ 02:23:00 - 02:24:00] But then with all the, you know, riots taking place and people considering Parsis and Aakhanis there, you know, damning them for what they believed in.

[ 02:25:00 - 02:26:00] So people just flew. They weren't here. They left Pakistan. Because their environment wasn't safe. There wasn't conducive.

[ 02:27:00 - 02:28:00] That's another dilemma. Yes. This is why, I mean, I guess it couldn't be preserved. No. Over here in Pakistan. No. Okay.

[ 02:29:00 - 02:30:00] So how do you think your language could be preserved now? Okay. So number one.

[ 02:31:00 - 02:32:00] What do you think? Okay.

[ 02:33:00 - 02:34:00] I want to clarify and clarify this that I, for me, I won't call Persian as my native tongue.

[ 02:35:00 - 02:36:00] It was my father's native language and for him, his father.

[ 02:37:00 - 02:38:00] And my father did all his best to that this language transferred.

[ 02:39:00 - 02:40:00] And we spoke this language at home, but because he didn't have any brothers and sisters, they were all abroad and he was the only one trying and struggling with this.

[ 02:41:00 - 02:42:00] My mother was his cousin in some way, but they weren't Persian speaking. Right.

[ 02:43:00 - 02:44:00] So we got lost. We lost touch with the language.

[ 02:45:00 - 02:46:00] So the question that you are saying is that I think Persian as a language.

[ 02:47:00 - 02:48:00] And which is a beautiful language, whether it's and then, you know, for 10 years, my husband worked in Iran, national shipping lines.

[ 02:49:00 - 02:50:00] So I was traveling with him. So I did eight ships with him in those ships.

[ 02:51:00 - 02:52:00] Also, we had Persian women, Persian families.

[ 02:53:00 - 02:54:00] So I got to interact with them as well.

[ 02:55:00 - 02:56:00] But what their focus was, I wanted them to speak to me in Persian. So my language.

[ 02:57:00 - 02:58:00] Revived, but they wanted me to teach them English because they thought that, um, uh, they wanted to learn English and they were fascinated that I could speak English, but I, I really, that wasn't my focus.

[ 02:59:00 - 03:00:00] So, so, you know, I ended up speaking in English with them and teaching them English rather than practicing my Persian with them.

[ 03:01:00 - 03:02:00] So that's sad again. Understandable. Thank you.

[ 03:03:00 - 03:04:00] So how do you feel, um, as a speaker of this language and the multi-lingual community of FCCU?

[ 03:05:00 - 03:06:00] So I don't, as I said earlier, I don't consider myself a Persian speaker. But you are a multi-lingual. Yeah.

[ 03:07:00 - 03:08:00] I'm a multi-lingual in the sense that I can understand Gujarati.

[ 03:09:00 - 03:10:00] I can understand Sindhi, uh, because I've been in Karachi and we were taught all these languages, right?

[ 03:11:00 - 03:12:00] Persian was spoken at home. So I'm familiar with Persian.

[ 03:13:00 - 03:14:00] So the songs, Khanum Gadush, Gogosh used to sing, Dariush used to sing, we are very familiar with that.

[ 03:15:00 - 03:16:00] All our duas in our, um, Shia tradition, they're all in Persian mostly.

[ 03:17:00 - 03:18:00] Right, right, right. Okay. So our duas in Persian.

[ 03:19:00 - 03:20:00] I, I learned, so the way I recite the Quran is from the Persian lehen, not the Arabic lehen.

[ 03:21:00 - 03:22:00] Right, right, right. So that again goes, credit goes to my dad.

[ 03:23:00 - 03:24:00] So, uh, and he made us learn the Quran by heart when we were young.

[ 03:25:00 - 03:26:00] So he, he was very ambitious, although hum bhool gaya hai phir uske baad, we couldn't,

[ 03:27:00 - 03:28:00] uh, really remember all the Quran. He was a scholar as well, my dad. So he wrote three books. That's wonderful.

[ 03:29:00 - 03:30:00] Um, but you see, the thing is ke, um, I think, uh, besides me being, you know, I'm not a

[ 03:31:00 - 03:32:00] Persian speaker personally. I'm not.

[ 03:33:00 - 03:34:00] My dad was, and he tried to transfer, but I can understand Persian, thodi si practice

[ 03:35:00 - 03:36:00] ho jayegi toh I can speak it also. But I think that it is a beautiful language and I think languages should be cherished.

[ 03:37:00 - 03:38:00] And I think it is, it is so sad that languages, so Persian is not going to die out.

[ 03:39:00 - 03:40:00] It is a language that is spoken in Iran. It is a language that's spoken in Afghanistan.

[ 03:41:00 - 03:42:00] It's a, though in a different accent that's called Dari. Uh, it's a, it's a language that's spoken in Quetta and Balochistan.

[ 03:43:00 - 03:44:00] There are people who speak. And in Karachi. Yes.

[ 03:45:00 - 03:46:00] And even Kp to some Hindi, they do understand, uh, they speak Pashto and some of them do

[ 03:47:00 - 03:48:00] speak Persian as well.

[ 03:49:00 - 03:50:00] So it is, uh, and Urdu is, is an outcome or is a mixture of Persian.

[ 03:51:00 - 03:52:00] So most of the, you know, the, um, the accent is different. There are so many like Zabar Dast.

[ 03:53:00 - 03:54:00] Dast is hand, right? Zabar is on top.

[ 03:55:00 - 03:56:00] So Zabar Dast is being on top, your hand being on top. And then we say Rast Piguvi.

[ 03:57:00 - 03:58:00] Rast Guvi. Rast is you're on the right track. Rast Guvi, you're speaking the truth.

[ 03:59:00 - 04:00:00] Okay.

[ 04:01:00 - 04:02:00] So, uh, so most of the Urdu words are if it's just the way they are spoken, they evolve

[ 04:03:00 - 04:04:00] from Persian. Yes. They are Persian words. Yeah.

[ 04:05:00 - 04:06:00] So, um, how, um, I mean, you've talked about it, but, uh, how Persian has shaped your identity

[ 04:07:00 - 04:08:00] and sense of self while growing up? I think that that's an interesting question, by the way.

[ 04:09:00 - 04:10:00] So I think that, um, Persian has a, has a history to it.

[ 04:11:00 - 04:12:00] Definitely. Okay. es.

[ 04:13:00 - 04:14:00] And when you're listening to different stories, when you're exposed to different traditions

[ 04:15:00 - 04:16:00] of your language and you know, the cuisine.

[ 04:17:00 - 04:18:00] So in our home we have, uh, Persian cuisine, which we cook.

[ 04:19:00 - 04:20:00] Uh, we do it without even knowing that it's Persian. Yes.

[ 04:21:00 - 04:22:00] But sometimes, and you know, and then we have guests at home and they talk to us and we

[ 04:23:00 - 04:24:00] say Fasanjoon or Aush or Aush-e-Rishti or Aush-e-Birinj. Um, people, what, what's that?

[ 04:25:00 - 04:26:00] So, you know, so, um, we then realize that this is something specific to, um, the Persian

[ 04:27:00 - 04:28:00] culture. Right. So it's like our culture or at, in our home has become quite eclectic.

[ 04:29:00 - 04:30:00] We have not preserved the Iranian culture.

[ 04:31:00 - 04:32:00] As such, it's become a mixed culture with Karachi, Parsi, Gujarati, this, that, and the other.

[ 04:33:00 - 04:34:00] But I think that what that has done to me as a human being, yes, has given me a broader perspective.

[ 04:35:00 - 04:36:00] It has opened up my thinking and I feel that I am more, uh, accepting and more tolerant,

[ 04:37:00 - 04:38:00] um, towards other religions, other cultures, other people.

[ 04:39:00 - 04:40:00] So that is, I, I suppose what it may have done.

[ 04:41:00 - 04:42:00] And that is, I think I can credit my, uh, background, the way we were brought up. Definitely.

[ 04:43:00 - 04:44:00] Okay. So, um, could you share with us in your language, how would you express or describe certain

[ 04:45:00 - 04:46:00] emotions or feelings such as happiness, sadness, love? Yes.

[ 04:47:00 - 04:48:00] So, uh, if I say love, like, you know, um, Babajoon, yeah, uh, if I say, um, bach bach,

[ 04:49:00 - 04:50:00] that is Mubarak, congratulations. Okay.

[ 04:51:00 - 04:52:00] If I say, um, uh, Kurban-e-man, Kurban.

[ 04:53:00 - 04:54:00] So I am Kurban. Darood. Darood. Darood-e-bashuma.

[ 04:55:00 - 04:56:00] That, you know, but Darood-e-bashuma is, uh, greetings to you, bless you. Right. Right. Right.

[ 04:57:00 - 04:58:00] Right.

[ 04:59:00 - 05:00:00] So this way, and then it's more about sounds that, you know, we take out like, um, Ichi.

[ 05:01:00 - 05:02:00] In Ichi. So it's expressed through sounds. It's nothing. Okay. It's nothing for me. Um, so.

[ 05:03:00 - 05:04:00] Okay. So, um, if I speak or somebody speaks that I can maybe express it better, but, um, there

[ 05:05:00 - 05:06:00] are some things that are in Persian language.

[ 05:07:00 - 05:08:00] You, you utter like, like with your, uh, not with words, but with the sound. Right. Right.

[ 05:09:00 - 05:10:00] Right.

[ 05:11:00 - 05:12:00] So, um, leading to this, what is your favorite phase of word or any quote in Persian and

[ 05:13:00 - 05:14:00] why. Okay. Okay, so you must have heard this too shall pass. Yes.

[ 05:15:00 - 05:16:00] So in Persian, it came from Persian, not the other way around.

[ 05:17:00 - 05:18:00] So in these books that which means that there's this legend or myth or a tradition that goes that a king wanted to be happy or to be sad

[ 05:19:00 - 05:20:00] and wanted to know or look at a phrase where he could look and see that this was a fleeting emotion, whether it was being sad or being happy.

[ 05:21:00 - 05:22:00] Right.

[ 05:23:00 - 05:24:00] So he asked his vizier to think of something and wanted that to be inscribed on his ring so that whenever he saw it, if he was happy, he knew that this happiness was not was short lived.

[ 05:25:00 - 05:26:00] And if he was sad, then he would know. That the sadness was short lived.

[ 05:27:00 - 05:28:00] So the vizier, after consulting with a lot of people, then he came up with this phrase in these books, which means that this too shall pass.

[ 05:29:00 - 05:30:00] So the king became happy because he saw that and he thought that when he's happy, he will say he will know that, you know, this happiness won't last much.

[ 05:31:00 - 05:32:00] And when he said he will again. No, that this is temporary. Yes. Thank you for enlightening. Yes. For this information.

[ 05:33:00 - 05:34:00] Okay. So what was your favorite food growing up? And was it homemade?

[ 05:35:00 - 05:36:00] If so, please share the recipe if possible. And did you have like any other unique dishes from your culture?

[ 05:37:00 - 05:38:00] Okay.

[ 05:39:00 - 05:40:00] So as I said earlier, in our culture, we had Osh, we had Fasenjun, we had Chalu Kebab,

[ 05:41:00 - 05:42:00] Baudian, Baudian Goul,

[ 05:43:00 - 05:44:00] and Bamiyan, which is Bamiyan is brinjal, baingan, and Baudian, Bamiyan, and Bamiyan is I think Bhindi.

[ 05:45:00 - 05:46:00] Right, right, right. Brinjal, Bamiyan.

[ 05:47:00 - 05:48:00] And Badamjun is brinjal. Right, right, right. Yeah.

[ 05:49:00 - 05:50:00] So here we make Baudian.

[ 05:51:00 - 05:52:00] It's very dry, but in Irani way, it is like a curry.

[ 05:53:00 - 05:54:00] All right. Okay. So we have it with rice and rice is called Bering.

[ 05:55:00 - 05:56:00] All right. Okay. So it's Shorba, it's curry. Shorba.

[ 05:57:00 - 05:58:00] Now, you see, Shorba bole. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shorba. It's the same. Okay. And then.

[ 05:59:00 - 06:00:00] You have, so as I was talking, telling you earlier, Fasanjun is something that we used to have.

[ 06:01:00 - 06:02:00] It's a festive dish. Right.

[ 06:03:00 - 06:04:00] So when we were growing up on Eids on different occasions, we would have Fasanjun, which is

[ 06:05:00 - 06:06:00] made out of pomegranate juice. So that is cooked and made into a syrup.

[ 06:07:00 - 06:08:00] And then you have walnuts, which you crush. Chicken. Chicken cubes, you fry them in butter.

[ 06:09:00 - 06:10:00] And then you put a little bit of garlic and salt and black pepper in it.

[ 06:11:00 - 06:12:00] And then you put the walnuts in them and fry.

[ 06:13:00 - 06:14:00] And then you cook it in the pomegranate juice. Right. It's delicious.

[ 06:15:00 - 06:16:00] It's a delicious dish and you eat it with rice. Right. So do you still incorporate that? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[ 06:17:00 - 06:18:00] Like Eid or. Yes. Yes. We do that. That's wonderful.

[ 06:19:00 - 06:20:00] So do you have any idea about where vocabulary, forgotten words and proverbs or ancient versions

[ 06:21:00 - 06:22:00] of the language version? No, I'm sorry. That's fine.

[ 06:23:00 - 06:24:00] And what is your favorite song Ghazal and what is it about? We could also play it over here as well. Okay.

[ 06:25:00 - 06:26:00] So before that, I would like to. This is my father's favorite, Sh player, right.

[ 06:27:00 - 06:28:00] And I'm going to read it out to you and to explain it to you.

[ 06:29:00 - 06:30:00] So this goes like gillet , gillet that hell mom lose a recity does doesn't be

[ 06:31:00 - 06:32:00] able to be bad. But don't go for them. Lucky yourWeBee. Yeah.

[ 06:33:00 - 06:34:00] I Datum a 점. . Ba gufta, man gile na chiz budam.

[ 06:35:00 - 06:36:00] Ba gufta, man gile na chiz budam. Wa leken az muddate ba gul na shestam.

[ 06:37:00 - 06:38:00] Wa leken az muddate ba gul na shestam.

[ 06:39:00 - 06:40:00] Jamale ham nashni dar man asar kard. Wa garna man hama khakam ke hastam.

[ 06:41:00 - 06:42:00] So, this means that there is this hammam. You know what is hammam? Yes, yes, yes.

[ 06:43:00 - 06:44:00] So, in those days, people had these hammams. They would go to hammams. They didn't have bathrooms in their homes. Okay.

[ 06:45:00 - 06:46:00] So, after a long time, there was dust or sand that deposited or collected at the bottom of the hammam.

[ 06:47:00 - 06:48:00] So, this is that... Somebody asked the gil.

[ 06:49:00 - 06:50:00] Gil is matti. The matti that had settled in the hammam.

[ 06:51:00 - 06:52:00] Somebody asked that matti that why are you smelling so beautiful?

[ 06:53:00 - 06:54:00] Why is your smell so beautiful? Are you mushk or are you ambir? So, mushk is from the deer.

[ 06:55:00 - 06:56:00] Yes. Okay. And ambir is also... A fragrance. A very, very beautiful fragrance.

[ 06:57:00 - 06:58:00] So, he says that I got that gil, that matti from my mehboob.

[ 06:59:00 - 07:00:00] And I asked that gil, that matti, that why do you smell so beautiful?

[ 07:01:00 - 07:02:00] So, the gil responded and said that, you know, I am just matti. I am nothing.

[ 07:03:00 - 07:04:00] But because I was in the roots of the rose bush,

[ 07:05:00 - 07:06:00] so the smell of the rose bush settled in me.

[ 07:07:00 - 07:08:00] That's why I am so... I spell or my fragrance is so beautiful.

[ 07:09:00 - 07:10:00] So, which means that if you enjoy the company of people who are learned

[ 07:11:00 - 07:12:00] or who have something to offer, then that beauty or that fragrance...

[ 07:13:00 - 07:14:00] Is passed on. Is passed on to you. So, I love this one. And this is my father's favorite.

[ 07:15:00 - 07:16:00] This is very beautiful. Yes. So, we had a song as well. Yeah. And we were... So, I wanted...

[ 07:17:00 - 07:18:00] This is my favorite singer, Dariush. Right. And this song, I explained to you the meaning before. And then you can play it. All right.

[ 07:19:00 - 07:20:00] All right. So, the song goes as Salam Bapiri. It is in the remembrance of...

[ 07:21:00 - 07:22:00] Of young age. Right. Salam Bapiri meaning you pay homage,

[ 07:23:00 - 07:24:00] tribute to old age. Old age. Old age. So, the old age is saying that, you know,

[ 07:25:00 - 07:26:00] why is...

[ 07:27:00 - 07:28:00] So, why is my mirror broken?

[ 07:29:00 - 07:30:00] When I look at the mirror, it seems to be as broken.

[ 07:31:00 - 07:32:00] And there is dust settled on my face. All right. So, it says that...

[ 07:33:00 - 07:34:00] So, time passed for me so quickly that the years and the months that I did not realize that I had come to become an old man.

[ 07:35:00 - 07:36:00] Right. Okay. And now that I...

[ 07:37:00 - 07:38:00] When I call the young age, it doesn't listen to me. It's gone. Yeah.

[ 07:39:00 - 07:40:00] And then he says that life or age is immortal. It's not immortal.

[ 07:41:00 - 07:42:00] It's mortal. So, we are not Noori people.

[ 07:43:00 - 07:44:00] We are mortal people. Yes. So... So, we are bound to die.

[ 07:45:00 - 07:46:00] And then he gives example of a bird who knows before his death is coming that he will die.

[ 07:47:00 - 07:48:00] So, it becomes quiet. Right. Okay. So, it's all about that. And it's a beautiful song.

[ 07:49:00 - 07:50:00] So, I hope that your audience likes it. If you'd like to play it now... Yes, I would love to play it now.

[ 07:51:00 - 07:52:00] So, then we could give it a listen to it as well. And you've explained this so beautifully.

[ 07:53:00 - 07:54:00] And we would conclude the interview with this. Okay.

[ 07:55:00 - 07:56:00] And thank you so much for giving us your valuable time.

[ 07:57:00 - 07:58:00] I personally got to learn so much about this beautiful language.

[ 07:59:00 - 08:00:00] And I hope we found a system to sustain and maintain and preserve these languages as they make our culture even more beautiful.

[ 08:01:00 - 08:02:00] Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you very much for this opportunity. Yeah, it was a bit... A bit strange to come because I got...

[ 08:03:00 - 08:04:00] But of course, this is an art. This is an art. Yeah, it's an art. Thank you. Thank you.

[ 08:05:00 - 08:06:00] Thank you. Thank you.

[ 08:07:00 - 08:08:00] I'll stop now. Okay. Stop here. Okay.

[ 08:09:00 - 08:10:00] Now, can I conclude? Okay. Okay. Okay.

[ 08:11:00 - 08:12:00] So we would listen to the song you've explained and we would conclude the interview from here.

[ 08:13:00 - 08:14:00] So we would listen to the song you've mentioned and I would like to conclude it from here.

[ 08:15:00 - 08:16:00] Thank you so much for giving us your valuable time.

Transcription: Interviewing Ma’am Mussarat

[ - ] Assalamu alaikum. Today we have Ms. Musarrat. Thank you for taking time out for us, ma'am, today for this interview of the course Language Documentation.

[ - ] Ms. Musarrat is Assistant Professor, PhD Scholar and the Head of Writing Center. Shall we start, ma'am?

[ - ] Sure, go ahead. Thank you very much for inviting me.

[ - ] I am very happy that you are here with us today.

[ - ] My name is Rashad. So our lines go back to Iran. And my father used to be very, very particular about us speaking Persian when we were young. And he also got us enrolled in a school which was run by an Iranian lady, Lely Begum.

[ - ] So we lived in Karachi. And my father used to speak to us.

[ - ] And in Persian, he used to tell us Iqbal's Kalam in Persian, explain it to us.

[ - ] So, but in the beginning, when we were young, we were speaking Persian to some extent, but I think it was not very long term, or I should I should say, it did not last too much because we were surrounded by people.

[ - ] We were surrounded with Urdu and most of the time English.

[ - ] So that was the language we used to speak outside our home. In schools and...

[ - ] Yes. So in the at home, we were speaking Persian, English, Urdu, a mixture of all of this.

[ - ] Right, right, right. Okay, so we have specific terms. And could you please tell us how you would address them in Persian?

[ - ] So what would you, what would be mother in Persian? Mother. Right. Father. Father.

[ - ] Maternal grandfather. Or grandparents. Grandfather. Grandfather. Right, right. And brother.

[ - ] Brother, brother. Sister. Sister. Uncle and aunt. Uncle, aunt. Right. Uncle.

[ - ] We say uncle. Right, right, right.

[ - ] Okay, so can you share a particularly meaningful or ancient oral tradition from your hometown that you believe should be preserved for future generations or should be passed on?

[ - ] Okay, so we used to, when we were growing up, we used to celebrate Nowruz. Right.

[ - ] Nowruz and that is the first day of spring, 21st of March. Right.

[ - ] I feel that since...

[ - ] Since the time that we are now influenced with colonization and with British way of dealing with things, to the extent that our calendar is also, you know...

[ - ] Has changed. Yes, so that's the Julian calendar. Yes, yes. So we don't refer to our Islamic calendar.

[ - ] But in the same way, we do not... We did not preserve the Persian calendar.

[ - ] So in the Persian calendar, Nowruz, the first day of spring, is celebrated. And we...

[ - ] I am from the Shia tradition.

[ - ] So we believe in the Shia tradition that Hazrat Ali was given his first...

[ - ] That is the first day of his coming to the throne. Right, right. So that's why we celebrate Nowruz.

[ - ] Okay. So I think that... Okay. So I think that...

[ - ] From the Shia tradition, Nowruz as the first day of spring should be celebrated. Yes. And what we do in...

[ - ] To celebrate that is to have all the...

[ - ] Because you realize that in March, most of the fruits are available.

[ - ] Most of the flowers are available. So what we do is we have a seven color Dastarkhwan.

[ - ] Oh, wow. So we have seven... So we have seven colors on that.

[ - ] And the dishes that we prepare for that day are also of seven colors. Right, right, right.

[ - ] So it's a beautiful function. And then in the evening, what we do is...

[ - ] And that's, again, so mixed. This is cultural and religious tradition mixed.

[ - ] So in the evening, nearing Maghreb, what we do is we have a bowl of...

[ - ] A bowl of... And in that, we put rose petals.

[ - ] So at the time, we say that it was the time of Hazrat Ali coming to the throne.

[ - ] All the petals come to a standstill in that bowl. So it denotes that. Yeah.

[ - ] So we all celebrate it and we... It's a lovely time of the year for us. And peak spring in March.

[ - ] Yes, peak spring. Beginning of spring. Beginning of spring. So... So... So... So... What are some of the challenges that you and your community face

[ - ] in preserving your culture and traditions?

[ - ] So, you know, as I said that it's been, I think, fourth generation that we have come to Pakistan.

[ - ] So are my grandfathers. They...

[ - ] When they came to Pakistan, they were Sayyids and they were driven out from Iran.

[ - ] Okay, so there were four grandfathers. So we have our own Shajra. They came here as refugees in Pakistan.

[ - ] They came here because they were driven out of Iran because they were killing the Sayyids at that time and the Shias. In Iran. Yes.

[ - ] So they came to Pakistan. Right, right. So since then, so we settled in Pakistan.

[ - ] This is the fourth generation that we are here.

[ - ] But my father, grandfather, they tried to keep the language intact.

[ - ] They tried to keep the traditions and the culture.

[ - ] But I think that it's not really, it was, it's sad that we were not able to preserve it.

[ - ] And then my father was very, very, he was adamant that we sisters go to the Parsi school

[ - ] because in the Parsi school in Karachi, Persian was spoken.

[ - ] So there was a lot of Parsi community that spoke Persian. Yes.

[ - ] And we used to practice that. So there we got the practice.

[ - ] But then, sadly, all, you know, over the last 30 years, all my friends who are Parsis have now left Pakistan.

[ - ] That's another very unfortunate situation.

[ - ] Where, you know, I think that we have lost our tolerance somehow towards other cultures.

[ - ] And communities. And communities. So people like Agha Khanis. Yes.

[ - ] I also speak Gujarati and understand Gujarati because I grew up in Gujarati families. You know, they were my friends in school.

[ - ] So those Gujaratis were also Parsis. So Parsis who spoke Gujarati. So they came from Gujarat, India's Gujarat.

[ - ] Right, right. So they were also settled in Karachi. And there was a huge Parsi community there.

[ - ] So we used to be very, very close to the Parsi community because, number one, they spoke Persian.

[ - ] Number two, that they were my class fellows. Number three, that my father's, because my father was in Merchant Navy.

[ - ] And he, so the company that he worked for was owned by Parsis.

[ - ] So Parsis were really very affluent, influential people at that time.

[ - ] I'm talking about early 60s and then early 70s.

[ - ] Till early 70s, this remained the way Pakistan or Karachi was known as, as a cosmopolitan.

[ - ] Right, right. City.

[ - ] But then with all the, you know, riots taking place and people considering Parsis and Aakhanis there, you know, damning them for what they believed in.

[ - ] So people just flew. They weren't here. They left Pakistan. Because their environment wasn't safe. There wasn't conducive.

[ - ] That's another dilemma. Yes. This is why, I mean, I guess it couldn't be preserved. No. Over here in Pakistan. No. Okay.

[ - ] So how do you think your language could be preserved now? Okay. So number one.

[ - ] What do you think? Okay.

[ - ] I want to clarify and clarify this that I, for me, I won't call Persian as my native tongue.

[ - ] It was my father's native language and for him, his father.

[ - ] And my father did all his best to that this language transferred.

[ - ] And we spoke this language at home, but because he didn't have any brothers and sisters, they were all abroad and he was the only one trying and struggling with this.

[ - ] My mother was his cousin in some way, but they weren't Persian speaking. Right.

[ - ] So we got lost. We lost touch with the language.

[ - ] So the question that you are saying is that I think Persian as a language.

[ - ] And which is a beautiful language, whether it's and then, you know, for 10 years, my husband worked in Iran, national shipping lines.

[ - ] So I was traveling with him. So I did eight ships with him in those ships.

[ - ] Also, we had Persian women, Persian families.

[ - ] So I got to interact with them as well.

[ - ] But what their focus was, I wanted them to speak to me in Persian. So my language.

[ - ] Revived, but they wanted me to teach them English because they thought that, um, uh, they wanted to learn English and they were fascinated that I could speak English, but I, I really, that wasn't my focus.

[ - ] So, so, you know, I ended up speaking in English with them and teaching them English rather than practicing my Persian with them.

[ - ] So that's sad again. Understandable. Thank you.

[ - ] So how do you feel, um, as a speaker of this language and the multi-lingual community of FCCU?

[ - ] So I don't, as I said earlier, I don't consider myself a Persian speaker. But you are a multi-lingual. Yeah.

[ - ] I'm a multi-lingual in the sense that I can understand Gujarati.

[ - ] I can understand Sindhi, uh, because I've been in Karachi and we were taught all these languages, right?

[ - ] Persian was spoken at home. So I'm familiar with Persian.

[ - ] So the songs, Khanum Gadush, Gogosh used to sing, Dariush used to sing, we are very familiar with that.

[ - ] All our duas in our, um, Shia tradition, they're all in Persian mostly.

[ - ] Right, right, right. Okay. So our duas in Persian.

[ - ] I, I learned, so the way I recite the Quran is from the Persian lehen, not the Arabic lehen.

[ - ] Right, right, right. So that again goes, credit goes to my dad.

[ - ] So, uh, and he made us learn the Quran by heart when we were young.

[ - ] So he, he was very ambitious, although hum bhool gaya hai phir uske baad, we couldn't,

[ - ] uh, really remember all the Quran. He was a scholar as well, my dad. So he wrote three books. That's wonderful.

[ - ] Um, but you see, the thing is ke, um, I think, uh, besides me being, you know, I'm not a

[ - ] Persian speaker personally. I'm not.

[ - ] My dad was, and he tried to transfer, but I can understand Persian, thodi si practice

[ - ] ho jayegi toh I can speak it also. But I think that it is a beautiful language and I think languages should be cherished.

[ - ] And I think it is, it is so sad that languages, so Persian is not going to die out.

[ - ] It is a language that is spoken in Iran. It is a language that's spoken in Afghanistan.

[ - ] It's a, though in a different accent that's called Dari. Uh, it's a, it's a language that's spoken in Quetta and Balochistan.

[ - ] There are people who speak. And in Karachi. Yes.

[ - ] And even Kp to some Hindi, they do understand, uh, they speak Pashto and some of them do

[ - ] speak Persian as well.

[ - ] So it is, uh, and Urdu is, is an outcome or is a mixture of Persian.

[ - ] So most of the, you know, the, um, the accent is different. There are so many like Zabar Dast.

[ - ] Dast is hand, right? Zabar is on top.

[ - ] So Zabar Dast is being on top, your hand being on top. And then we say Rast Piguvi.

[ - ] Rast Guvi. Rast is you're on the right track. Rast Guvi, you're speaking the truth.

[ - ] Okay.

[ - ] So, uh, so most of the Urdu words are if it's just the way they are spoken, they evolve

[ - ] from Persian. Yes. They are Persian words. Yeah.

[ - ] So, um, how, um, I mean, you've talked about it, but, uh, how Persian has shaped your identity

[ - ] and sense of self while growing up? I think that that's an interesting question, by the way.

[ - ] So I think that, um, Persian has a, has a history to it.

[ - ] Definitely. Okay. es.

[ - ] And when you're listening to different stories, when you're exposed to different traditions

[ - ] of your language and you know, the cuisine.

[ - ] So in our home we have, uh, Persian cuisine, which we cook.

[ - ] Uh, we do it without even knowing that it's Persian. Yes.

[ - ] But sometimes, and you know, and then we have guests at home and they talk to us and we

[ - ] say Fasanjoon or Aush or Aush-e-Rishti or Aush-e-Birinj. Um, people, what, what's that?

[ - ] So, you know, so, um, we then realize that this is something specific to, um, the Persian

[ - ] culture. Right. So it's like our culture or at, in our home has become quite eclectic.

[ - ] We have not preserved the Iranian culture.

[ - ] As such, it's become a mixed culture with Karachi, Parsi, Gujarati, this, that, and the other.

[ - ] But I think that what that has done to me as a human being, yes, has given me a broader perspective.

[ - ] It has opened up my thinking and I feel that I am more, uh, accepting and more tolerant,

[ - ] um, towards other religions, other cultures, other people.

[ - ] So that is, I, I suppose what it may have done.

[ - ] And that is, I think I can credit my, uh, background, the way we were brought up. Definitely.

[ - ] Okay. So, um, could you share with us in your language, how would you express or describe certain

[ - ] emotions or feelings such as happiness, sadness, love? Yes.

[ - ] So, uh, if I say love, like, you know, um, Babajoon, yeah, uh, if I say, um, bach bach,

[ - ] that is Mubarak, congratulations. Okay.

[ - ] If I say, um, uh, Kurban-e-man, Kurban.

[ - ] So I am Kurban. Darood. Darood. Darood-e-bashuma.

[ - ] That, you know, but Darood-e-bashuma is, uh, greetings to you, bless you. Right. Right. Right.

[ - ] Right.

[ - ] So this way, and then it's more about sounds that, you know, we take out like, um, Ichi.

[ - ] In Ichi. So it's expressed through sounds. It's nothing. Okay. It's nothing for me. Um, so.

[ - ] Okay. So, um, if I speak or somebody speaks that I can maybe express it better, but, um, there

[ - ] are some things that are in Persian language.

[ - ] You, you utter like, like with your, uh, not with words, but with the sound. Right. Right.

[ - ] Right.

[ - ] So, um, leading to this, what is your favorite phase of word or any quote in Persian and

[ - ] why. Okay. Okay, so you must have heard this too shall pass. Yes.

[ - ] So in Persian, it came from Persian, not the other way around.

[ - ] So in these books that which means that there's this legend or myth or a tradition that goes that a king wanted to be happy or to be sad

[ - ] and wanted to know or look at a phrase where he could look and see that this was a fleeting emotion, whether it was being sad or being happy.

[ - ] Right.

[ - ] So he asked his vizier to think of something and wanted that to be inscribed on his ring so that whenever he saw it, if he was happy, he knew that this happiness was not was short lived.

[ - ] And if he was sad, then he would know. That the sadness was short lived.

[ - ] So the vizier, after consulting with a lot of people, then he came up with this phrase in these books, which means that this too shall pass.

[ - ] So the king became happy because he saw that and he thought that when he's happy, he will say he will know that, you know, this happiness won't last much.

[ - ] And when he said he will again. No, that this is temporary. Yes. Thank you for enlightening. Yes. For this information.

[ - ] Okay. So what was your favorite food growing up? And was it homemade?

[ - ] If so, please share the recipe if possible. And did you have like any other unique dishes from your culture?

[ - ] Okay.

[ - ] So as I said earlier, in our culture, we had Osh, we had Fasenjun, we had Chalu Kebab,

[ - ] Baudian, Baudian Goul,

[ - ] and Bamiyan, which is Bamiyan is brinjal, baingan, and Baudian, Bamiyan, and Bamiyan is I think Bhindi.

[ - ] Right, right, right. Brinjal, Bamiyan.

[ - ] And Badamjun is brinjal. Right, right, right. Yeah.

[ - ] So here we make Baudian.

[ - ] It's very dry, but in Irani way, it is like a curry.

[ - ] All right. Okay. So we have it with rice and rice is called Bering.

[ - ] All right. Okay. So it's Shorba, it's curry. Shorba.

[ - ] Now, you see, Shorba bole. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shorba. It's the same. Okay. And then.

[ - ] You have, so as I was talking, telling you earlier, Fasanjun is something that we used to have.

[ - ] It's a festive dish. Right.

[ - ] So when we were growing up on Eids on different occasions, we would have Fasanjun, which is

[ - ] made out of pomegranate juice. So that is cooked and made into a syrup.

[ - ] And then you have walnuts, which you crush. Chicken. Chicken cubes, you fry them in butter.

[ - ] And then you put a little bit of garlic and salt and black pepper in it.

[ - ] And then you put the walnuts in them and fry.

[ - ] And then you cook it in the pomegranate juice. Right. It's delicious.

[ - ] It's a delicious dish and you eat it with rice. Right. So do you still incorporate that? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[ - ] Like Eid or. Yes. Yes. We do that. That's wonderful.

[ - ] So do you have any idea about where vocabulary, forgotten words and proverbs or ancient versions

[ - ] of the language version? No, I'm sorry. That's fine.

[ - ] And what is your favorite song Ghazal and what is it about? We could also play it over here as well. Okay.

[ - ] So before that, I would like to. This is my father's favorite, Sh player, right.

[ - ] And I'm going to read it out to you and to explain it to you.

[ - ] So this goes like gillet , gillet that hell mom lose a recity does doesn't be

[ - ] able to be bad. But don't go for them. Lucky yourWeBee. Yeah.

[ - ] I Datum a 점. . Ba gufta, man gile na chiz budam.

[ - ] Ba gufta, man gile na chiz budam. Wa leken az muddate ba gul na shestam.

[ - ] Wa leken az muddate ba gul na shestam.

[ - ] Jamale ham nashni dar man asar kard. Wa garna man hama khakam ke hastam.

[ - ] So, this means that there is this hammam. You know what is hammam? Yes, yes, yes.

[ - ] So, in those days, people had these hammams. They would go to hammams. They didn't have bathrooms in their homes. Okay.

[ - ] So, after a long time, there was dust or sand that deposited or collected at the bottom of the hammam.

[ - ] So, this is that... Somebody asked the gil.

[ - ] Gil is matti. The matti that had settled in the hammam.

[ - ] Somebody asked that matti that why are you smelling so beautiful?

[ - ] Why is your smell so beautiful? Are you mushk or are you ambir? So, mushk is from the deer.

[ - ] Yes. Okay. And ambir is also... A fragrance. A very, very beautiful fragrance.

[ - ] So, he says that I got that gil, that matti from my mehboob.

[ - ] And I asked that gil, that matti, that why do you smell so beautiful?

[ - ] So, the gil responded and said that, you know, I am just matti. I am nothing.

[ - ] But because I was in the roots of the rose bush,

[ - ] so the smell of the rose bush settled in me.

[ - ] That's why I am so... I spell or my fragrance is so beautiful.

[ - ] So, which means that if you enjoy the company of people who are learned

[ - ] or who have something to offer, then that beauty or that fragrance...

[ - ] Is passed on. Is passed on to you. So, I love this one. And this is my father's favorite.

[ - ] This is very beautiful. Yes. So, we had a song as well. Yeah. And we were... So, I wanted...

[ - ] This is my favorite singer, Dariush. Right. And this song, I explained to you the meaning before. And then you can play it. All right.

[ - ] All right. So, the song goes as Salam Bapiri. It is in the remembrance of...

[ - ] Of young age. Right. Salam Bapiri meaning you pay homage,

[ - ] tribute to old age. Old age. Old age. So, the old age is saying that, you know,

[ - ] why is...

[ - ] So, why is my mirror broken?

[ - ] When I look at the mirror, it seems to be as broken.

[ - ] And there is dust settled on my face. All right. So, it says that...

[ - ] So, time passed for me so quickly that the years and the months that I did not realize that I had come to become an old man.

[ - ] Right. Okay. And now that I...

[ - ] When I call the young age, it doesn't listen to me. It's gone. Yeah.

[ - ] And then he says that life or age is immortal. It's not immortal.

[ - ] It's mortal. So, we are not Noori people.

[ - ] We are mortal people. Yes. So... So, we are bound to die.

[ - ] And then he gives example of a bird who knows before his death is coming that he will die.

[ - ] So, it becomes quiet. Right. Okay. So, it's all about that. And it's a beautiful song.

[ - ] So, I hope that your audience likes it. If you'd like to play it now... Yes, I would love to play it now.

[ - ] So, then we could give it a listen to it as well. And you've explained this so beautifully.

[ - ] And we would conclude the interview with this. Okay.

[ - ] And thank you so much for giving us your valuable time.

[ - ] I personally got to learn so much about this beautiful language.

[ - ] And I hope we found a system to sustain and maintain and preserve these languages as they make our culture even more beautiful.

[ - ] Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you very much for this opportunity. Yeah, it was a bit... A bit strange to come because I got...

[ - ] But of course, this is an art. This is an art. Yeah, it's an art. Thank you. Thank you.

[ - ] Thank you. Thank you.

[ - ] I'll stop now. Okay. Stop here. Okay.

[ - ] Now, can I conclude? Okay. Okay. Okay.

[ - ] So we would listen to the song you've explained and we would conclude the interview from here.

[ - ] So we would listen to the song you've mentioned and I would like to conclude it from here.

[ - ] Thank you so much for giving us your valuable time.